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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an unstable equilibrium. Good luck thought policing thousands upon thousands of journalists, each of them has an incentive to defect and get more eye balls that competition, and make more money and name for themselves. Never going to happen, until we have full blown censorship and you only read double-plus good happy time stories. Is that what you really want?

"Good luck thought policing thousands upon thousands of journalists" Except you're ignoring the fact that the corporate media already does that. It seems to work well enough, too. It helps that "journalists" are mostly a thing of the past with today's reporters often just doing the minimum to check things when they're not just repeating whatever the current fad is. That's extremely popular, too. Most stories are what…

Except they seem to be fanning the fire instead of supressing.

It's all about eyeballs.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*so in that sense, the media is juicing its numbers thats all they're doing >public is not made aware of this very tragic problem everyone is quite aware of what the problems are, many view the children murdered during Sandy Hook as the end of the conversation. The decisions were made. most first world countries have solved these problems, the US meanwhile... ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regu…

Think about this event for 1 minute: He drove for -9- hours. NINE HOURS. Do you think it would take less than 9 hours to pour some diesel fuel on fertilizer and flatten the entire WalMart? People will just move on to other weapons: knives, bombs, etc. Norway has very restrictive gun laws. Breivik managed to get enough fertilizer to make a bomb that was mostly a distraction, but still sent 8 people to grave and injure…

Other countries with stricter gun laws have lower murder rates. So it doesn’t follow that people will necessarily just move on to other weapons.

Also, knife crime in the UK is not higher than the US.

Yes the deaths were avoidable. We know they were because every other first world country doesn’t have this problem in anywhere the same degree.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you filter spam if you can't moderate at all? HN only exists as a service because it's quite carefully moderated.

By treating it fairly. Communications Decency Act of 1996, Section 230 allowed platforms to not be held liable for user generated content. But it did not allow publishers to have the same freedom. Notice the very important distinction between "platforms" vs "publishers". A publisher like a newspaper can be sued for content they put out. A platform cannot be sued for the same. When companies like CloudFlare start bann…

That is not what CDA 230 does. It even allows a website that mostly publishes its own content (like a paper) also publish user comments, without being held liable for them.

> This "publisher" v. "platform" concept is a totally artificial distinction that has no basis in the law. News publishers are also protected by Section 230 of the CDA. All CDA 230 does is protect a website from being held liable for user content or moderation choices. It does not cover content created by the company itself. In short, the distinction is not "platform" or "publisher" it's "content creator" or "content intermediary." Contrary to Coaston's claims, Section 230 equally protects the NY Times and the Washington Post if it chooses to host and/or moderate user comments. It does not protect content produced by those companies itself, but similarly, Section 230 does not protect content produced by Facebook itself.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190507/16484342160/one-t...

The section is actually quite clear if you take the time to read it:

"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of— (A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected".

An interactive computer service means anything that smells like a website, and here it says they may block or filter anything at all they find objectionable. It's quite explicit. It does not restrict its protections to "platforms", but to any provider of internet services that host third-party content.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#424
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the grandparent's comment about there being boards for other topics is why the radicalization is such a problem (the same thing applies to Reddit and Youtube's recommended video algorithm). The normal content is what attracts people to the site, but once there, they see the radicalized content mixed in with it. This ends up normalizing the radicalized content making it easier to recruit new members. Very few peop…

> The normal content is what attracts people to the site, but once there, they see the radicalized content mixed in with it. I don't think this argument holds when the boards are compartmentalized. Otherwise you could generalize it to the internet as a whole, where things are also compartmentalized into sites.

You are right in a certain aspect that 8chan is more compartmenalized than Reddit or Youtube, but there is still a world of difference in the discoverability of the various boards on 8chan versus the internet at large. A non-radicalized 8chan user can end up on /pol out of mere curiosity and be pulled in. No one visits the Daily Stormer without a predisposition to hate.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#425

When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderation.

You're in favour of censorship. Moderation is keeping discussion civil and on-topic, which interestingly enough mostly happens by itself in 'absolute free speech' spaces.

What you support is the selective suppression of ideas that you don't like. Don't call it moderation. Call it by its name. Censorship.

Cloudflare isn't 'moderating' 8chan. It's deplatforming it and enacting censorship.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In every other, let's say, G20 country, someone shooting up a shopping mall and killing 20 will absolutely make national news - they will talk about it for months and it will be ranked "top ten worst news for $country in 2019", if not the absolute worst. In some countries (let's say, Korea) reporters will probably dig into the shooter's elementary school transcripts and interview second cousins. In other words, if an…

> In every other, let's say, G20 country, someone shooting up a shopping mall and killing 20 will absolutely make national news - they will talk about it for months and it will be ranked "top ten worst news for $country in 2019", if not the absolute worst. I don't think this would apply to China and India. Every other country in the world has a lower national population than the US. Yet I doubt that your statement ev…

It looks like there’ve been about four mass shootings in China since 1990; a couple criminal (robbery-related), one terrorist, one random.

Of course, information out of China isn’t that reliable, you could argue. The EU as a whole is considerably bigger than the US, and every year or so there’s a mass shooting or other mass killing. And it’s huge news for a long time. The UK has about a fifth as many people as the US, and this century has had five mass killings (one of which involved guns). The US rate and attitude really is abnormal.

Edit: It’s also worth noting that the vast majority of European mass killing incidents are terroristic; the “someone just shoots a bunch of people for no particularly discernible reason” thing is really, really rare. The Texas shooting (terroristic) would be extremely shocking in any European country and would dominate the news for a long time. But the Ohio one (looks non-terroristic) would probably have an even bigger impact and would likely lead to tightening of gun laws etc (the Dunblane massacre lead to the banning of almost all handguns in the UK, for instance).

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#427

When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderation.

> Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed.

That suffers from a selection effect. Since not many sites prioritize free speech and only allow things within some narrower region of the overton window to be discussed it follows that the more extreme positions get pushed to sites that allow more.

If, hypothetically, every site were tolerant then you wouldn't have that association.

Also note that even 8chan is still moderated, each sub-board has its own rules and there also are global rules. What it really enables is a diversity of rules, set by each sub-community. What people seem to want is for sub-communities not to be allowed to exist even though they're not illegal. And that seems pretty dangerous.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#428
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the concern about the gradual radicalization that occurs in these online communities, and not about specific posts that threaten violence or announce impending mass shootings?

Has it occurred to you that radicalization actually happens offline, perhaps even in childhood, due to some kind of real life events, and nothing to do with internet at all? All of this rooted in meatspace. The so called "social defeat". How often do you see successful people that have a fullfilling life go on rampages?

Unlikely. Media technologies are technologies for disseminating ideas. Different technologies lie on different points of the spectrum between one-to-many and many-to-many.

Broadcast television, and radio to a lesser extent, is very close to a one-to-many media. There might be a small handful of national networks that can disseminate ideas, and they can only do so in ways that are easy to detect and control by authorities. In an authoritarian state like the Soviet Union there might be only state-controlled broadcasting and it really was one-to-many. In a free country like the United States, you might end up with 3-4 broadcast networks. That's not enough to get a broad spectrum of opinion, which is why the midcentury Overton window was so narrow compared to today.

Cable and satellite television went closer to many-to-many. (Print is also closer to many-to-many than radio and television, but radio and television are more popular since they don't require the effort of reading or the skill of literacy in order to consume, so the presence of radio and television reduces the impact of print.) This broadens things a bit because then you can watch Fox News, though the biggest reason for Fox News was probably an unmet market niche. The broadcast networks plus CNN, for various reasons (likely the internal biases of the journalists themselves), had drifted to a noticeable center-left bias by the 1990's. This left a massive opportunity for a right-biased news network to capture a rough half of the market that was "underserved" to some extent. Conservative talk radio was a similar story.

Print was somewhat more broad, but even then, there were usually small numbers of "respectable" opinionated magazines you could buy on either side of the spectrum (e.g. National Review, The Nation, Mother Jones, The Weekly Standard, etc.) but publication was a big enough hurdle that these outlets often served as moderating voices (e.g the National Review effectively excluding the John Birch Society or Ayn Rand from the "respectable right").

The internet is an extremely many-to-many platform. I mean, I'm just some random idiot you've probably never met and now you're hearing all of my thoughts about something of national importance. That's pretty fucking insane when you think about it. And just like cable, talk radio, and publishing slightly widen the bounds of the Overton Window compared to the broadcast television oligopoly, the internet has done something potentially even worse. I don't think there is a single Overton Window at all anymore. And the old media can't handle this. In another era, this National Review cover alone (https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/56a21e51c08a80431d8b8...) would have completely ended a Republican candidate. In today's era, that man is the President. Similar forces have normalized people like Bernie Sanders, someone who actually existed for a long time but would never have become a national figure in an earlier era.

And yeah, I really think this is all part of the same mechanism. People like Timothy McVeigh were radicalized in person. There aren't that many of him. There are a lot of small scale domestic terror attacks and at times even entire mobs of people (Charlottesville for one example, Portland antifa for another example) who commit acts of political violence. And the more these kinds of events happen, and are publicized, the more this type of behavior becomes normalized, becomes something within the realm of things people think about as something that someone might do in a given situation.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you use the tired, old "businesses can refuse to serve anybody they want" argument, understand that you are using the same arguments used in the past to refuse business to various races, creeds, orientations etc. that are now protected classes. That really ought to make you queasy and perhaps you should contemplate why. By the way, some states are now recognizing that political affiliation needs to be a protecte…

A black person cannot stop being black, nor is there any reason they should. A person who believes black people should be killed or kicked out of the U.S. can always change their mind, and they should. Advocating bigotry or violence is not a political affiliation nor is it a protected class.

That doesn’t change the fact that the CRA restricted freedom of association. Still, the better argument for legislating platform neutrality is that those platforms enjoy special legal status based on the notion that they can’t be held responsible for user-generated content. If you can spare resources to purge content that offends your political sensibilities, then you are making a choice not to remove content that is, e.g., defamatory, infringes on copyright, etc.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mass shootings (generally) don't kill that many people. They are scary, yes, but not that deadly (statistically). Keep it local news, don't The problem is there is a simmering domestic nationalistic terrorism threat to the country - and that is news. The killer in TX directly referenced it, as did very many of the prior mass-murders of recent. That is noteworthy, and fundamentally different from people killed in a…

>Yes the media could adjust how they report it, but that's not the root problem here. It's an intentionally fostered growing domestic nationalist terrorism. Like any form of lone-wolf terrorism, these shootings are being perpetrated by individuals, with individual motivations. There's a compelling case that they're at least partially motivated or inspired by media coverage. We often hear that suicide is contagious. S…

It's not really lone wolf terrorism; evidence suggests that most killers actually have a loose but persistent social network. Even though they may select the time, location, and specifics of their actions in private, they typically discuss the possibilities and general goals/tactics with others.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1057610X.2017.1...

Media coverage can make a difference but I think relatively few people just decide to do it based on news coverage. FBI data suggests a median planning time of 1-2 months and a median preparation time of a week.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/pre-attack-behaviors-of-...

There is a community that actively celebrates, studies, and iterates on mass shootings for a variety of ends from political to psychic reasons.

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