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PHP in 2019

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Re: PHP in 2019

#421

Post by wvenable »

codesushi42 wrote: post #414
wvenable wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lexical scoping Yes. > Coroutines No. > Generators Yes. > Decorators No. > Generic type containers In progress. But also PHP has dynamic/weak typing and static/strong typing so this isn't strictly necessary. > A functional API (e.g. something like Java 8 streams) Available as a 3rd party library. > An extensive selection of data structures (collections) included in the standard lib https://www.php.net/manual/en/boo…

Thanks for the thoughtful response. But based on your answers, PHP does lag significantly behind other modern languages. FYI the SPL you linked is quite meager compared to languages like Python and Java. My opinion remains unchanged. Using PHP in 2019 only puts you at a disadvantage when compared to the alternatives.

Honestly nobody uses the SPL. PHP's array type is more than powerful enough for the vast majority of data structure tasks and the standard library has functions for treating it as a stack, a list, etc.

Coroutines are not necessary in PHP. In fact, the share nothing architecture of the LAMP stack is one of it's advantages if that suits your needs.

The setup of a Java web stack alone is painful enough to make PHP a viable option in comparison.

Re: PHP in 2019

#422

Post by nucleardog »

hguhghuff wrote: post #41

The thing that matters is language consistency... A language with a pure clean vision of itself in which the programmer can guess at syntax because they understand the general syntax principles to which the language adheres. Nothing here says PHP has been fixed in this regard. Python made the big leap and fixed some huge problems when it went to python 3 - yes it's migration approach was a total fail, but it further…

> The thing that matters is language consistency... [...] Python made the big leap and fixed some huge problems when it went to python 3

And yet, here we are over a decade along and the Python project is still maintaining Python 2 and I still need to maintain a copy of Python 2 on my computer because of the number of actively maintained projects still using it. How many developer-hours that could have gone into doing something else have instead gone into this "language consistency" project?

At any point in the past 25 years someone could have forked PHP to clean the syntax up and accomplished the exact same thing -- and yet apparently nobody has seen the inconsistency as a big enough issue or time sink to do so. I would take that as prima facie evidence that this isn't nearly as important as you seem to think it is.

Meanwhile, one of the strengths of PHP in my opinion has been how carefully they have maintained and managed backward compatibility. While "move fast and break things" might be the new norm, there is still a huge contingent of developers and businesses that see value in slower, more considered change.

Re: PHP in 2019

#423

Post by acomjean »

beezischillin wrote: post #408
cntainer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, Laravel provides the best dev experience in the PHP world. The funny thing is that Laravel basically took the Ruby on Rails philosophy and applied it to PHP. Just looking at their site it's clear they have a very similar vision: simple, fast and fun. One can always find differences but the basic principles are the same. IMO this is great kudos to the Laravel guys, whatever language I use I always look for the…

I used both Laravel and Symfony but I ended up with the second. I didn’t like the way Laravel’s ORM has its models structured plus the Symfony PHPStorm plugin is a miracle. Your mileage may vary and this is just me but I never quite understood why people ended up loving Laravel so much vs. Symfony.

I used Silex (the symphony micro framework which was merged back into Symfony), which means I'm now using Symfony. I too prefer it to Laravel. I thinks less opinionated maybe?

honestly its ok to have a different opinion, different people prefer different things.

Re: PHP in 2019

#424

Post by Aeolun »

beezischillin wrote: post #408
cntainer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, Laravel provides the best dev experience in the PHP world. The funny thing is that Laravel basically took the Ruby on Rails philosophy and applied it to PHP. Just looking at their site it's clear they have a very similar vision: simple, fast and fun. One can always find differences but the basic principles are the same. IMO this is great kudos to the Laravel guys, whatever language I use I always look for the…

I used both Laravel and Symfony but I ended up with the second. I didn’t like the way Laravel’s ORM has its models structured plus the Symfony PHPStorm plugin is a miracle. Your mileage may vary and this is just me but I never quite understood why people ended up loving Laravel so much vs. Symfony.

I feel Laravel is fantastic for Junior and medior programmers, while Symfony appeals more to seniors.

Re: PHP in 2019

#425

Post by codesushi42 »

wvenable wrote: post #421
codesushi42 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. But based on your answers, PHP does lag significantly behind other modern languages. FYI the SPL you linked is quite meager compared to languages like Python and Java. My opinion remains unchanged. Using PHP in 2019 only puts you at a disadvantage when compared to the alternatives.

Honestly nobody uses the SPL. PHP's array type is more than powerful enough for the vast majority of data structure tasks and the standard library has functions for treating it as a stack, a list, etc. Coroutines are not necessary in PHP. In fact, the share nothing architecture of the LAMP stack is one of it's advantages if that suits your needs. The setup of a Java web stack alone is painful enough to make PHP a via…

Thanks. Again, I am asking out of ignorance:

What is PHP's concurrency model? Is it still a forked process pool via something like PHP-FPM, or has it changed?

Does the VM enforce a GIL? I'm assuming there is some kind of threading API?

Can you run an event loop using epoll, and is the standard library well supported in that execution model?

FYI, I was a PHP developer from 2003-2011. I did enjoy it back then. I never bought into the Rails hype at the time, opting instead for copycats like Yii and CI.

But I was ignorant. Honestly, after switching to Python for web dev, I saw no reason to ever return. Since then, I've dropped web dev altogether, and I now work in C++, Java, and Python on a daily basis.

It may be the nature of the work, but I still cringe at the thought of using PHP again after learning how capable other general purpose languages are. From a CS point of view, working in PHP just isn't very interesting... or pleasant.

Re: PHP in 2019

#426

Post by [deleted] »

katet wrote: post #122

Here's the thing that always grates a little bit for me about these posts: I don't have a choice. I've worked at a couple of organisation where there are hundreds of thousands of lines of code written in PHP. It's been there for years. It does its job and - from a business perspective - it does its job pretty damn well. And I get paid to keep it ticking, and to improve it. Not to rewrite it to fit my personal tastes.…

[deleted]

Re: PHP in 2019

#427

Post by wyqydsyq »

I respect the leaps PHP has come as a language and runtime in recent years, however I still can't understand why anyone would elect to use it for greenfields projects.

The developer experience might be better than it's ever been, but even as pointed out in this article, it still has all the old issues like inconsistent core API, vague global context, and way too much implicit magic and guesswork. Not to mention it still relies on running a separate, third party HTTP server, in contrast to Node.js, Java, Python etc stacks where the HTTP server itself is a native construct of the language/runtime.

I can't see any single use case where there isn't a more appropriate alternative to using PHP. The only feasible reason I can see someone would use PHP for a greenfields project in this day and age is that they simply don't know any better.

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

Re: PHP in 2019

#428

Post by nikdaheratik »

I've spent basically two years working to convert a legacy project built on PHP 5.x into Laravel on PHP 7.x and I can agree that it's come a long way as a language, and that frameworks like this help.

The biggest issues, however, are not technical but are based on changes in the development philosophy overall. The legacy project was written by people who envied Java and its object system and wanted to make everything an object. Laravel (and similar projects) have moved towards something that is a mix of object-based approaches and Functional/Lispy approaches. This puts it more in line with the direction alot of languages (JS, Rust, etc) have been taking.

TL;DR: PHP is in a better place than it's been in awhile, largely because it's willing to borrow good ideas and execute them while still being able to make use of its legacy libraries when needed.

Re: PHP in 2019

#429

Post by jtreminio »

wyqydsyq wrote: post #427

I respect the leaps PHP has come as a language and runtime in recent years, however I still can't understand why anyone would elect to use it for greenfields projects. The developer experience might be better than it's ever been, but even as pointed out in this article, it still has all the old issues like inconsistent core API, vague global context, and way too much implicit magic and guesswork. Not to mention it st…

> it still has all the old issues like inconsistent core API

Seriously, people keep bringing this up. Why? Are you a machine? Did you memorize the API to every single language you write in? I type `strst` and my IDE autohints `strstr()` and the argument order.

> vague global context

What's vague about it? What does global context even mean in this sentence? Do you mean like super variables? Static properties? Can you provide some detail?

> Not to mention it still relies on running a separate, third party HTTP server, in contrast to Node.js, Java, Python

You _can_ run your website using only the built-in webserver for those languages, but are you really going to do that? Or are you going to put Nginx or Apache in front to do what they're made to do: be webservers? Hell, there's Unicorn, Passenger, Puma, all aimed at doing exactly this.

And surprise, surprise, PHP also has a built-in webserver you _can_ use, but shouldn't.

There's even ReactPHP, Swoole, Amp, all with webserver capabilities.

Sounds more like a person who knows PHP in passing, or may have used it lightly, or long ago.

Re: PHP in 2019

#430

Post by int_19h »

kthejoker2 wrote: post #378
Supermancho wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flip those. Nope. That's just incorrect. From Experian to JPMorgan Chase to Cambia Health to Amazon, Java is the typical case for every project. Look at stream processing tools at netflix via any given youtube presentation about stream processing. There are entire tooling segments where .NET is absent, despite their quality tools that run on Windows. Nobody trusts Windows by default and this has mortally wounded .N…

Having done a lot of .NET programming at JP Morgan Chase, allow me this Marshall McLuhan in Annie Hall moment ... I have no idea which language is more popular, but I can certainly list 1,000+ companies including the majority of the Fortune 500 who use .NET in the enterprise.

Which one is more popular depends a lot on which country you're in, and sometimes even where in that country.
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