Live data from Hacker News

Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

youtube.com

421–430 of 525 posts

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#421
post #251

It doesn't sound like they just snapped a picture. The one guy says they used "supercomputers" for 6 months to get the image. Sunspots look black relative to the rest of the sun but are actually very bright. Could this be the same thing? How did they set the black level? Is there a description of the procedure somewhere? EDIT: Found the paper describing the data processing: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/…

As far as I know K. Bouman [0] was the scientist leading the charge on the image processing/reconstruction. A few of her later papers probably have hints [1, 2] about how this is done, but I haven't seen the official release. [0] http://people.csail.mit.edu/klbouman/ [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1903.08832.pdf [2] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1702.07361.pdf

The project's director was Shep Doeleman

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/04/harvard-scien...

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#422
post #387

Good video that correctly predicted the image and describes why it looks the way it does [1]. TL; DR The dark area is the entire surface of the event horizon, including the side facing away from us, plus some more due to photons missing the event horizon "directly" being drawn in. One side is brighter due to its being Doppler boosted. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo

Side observation: This video, and the video you linked to got two million views in just a few hours. I didn't know black holes where this popular. (market opportunity here)

It's a very well made pop-sci video, which probably substantially increases the likelihood of it being reshared.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#423
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The black hole itself is spherical, but the light we're seeing around it isn't projected by the event horizon; rather, it's light from behind/around the black hole that isn't blocked. This video explains in much more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo

But if it's spherical, should not the light be all around it?

If it were emitting the light, yes, but it's not. It's more complicated than this, but imagine holding a black sphere in front of a light bulb. You'll see a ring of light around the sphere.

Somewhat separately, there's the accretion disk, which again is a disk not a sphere, much like other orbiting systems like solar systems or galaxies−the gravity between bodies orbiting the same central gravity source causes them to arrange roughly into a plane, rather than all having their own unrelated orbits. We're not seeing the accretion disk directly though, but rather the light from it, and from other sources, that is able to pass around the black hole. (ie the black sphere in front of the light bulb.)

Watch that video; it explains it in a very approachable way.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, interesting! Wouldn't it be easier to photograph our own? :-)

M87's black hole is currently eating something big, which makes it brighter. The black hole at the center of the milky way doesn't seem to have eaten anything lately, so it's accretion disk may be small or nonexistent.

> is currently eating something big

You mean: was eating something big 55 million years ago ;)

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#425

It's just a stupid collection of small pixels but somehow it feels very overwhelming looking at it for the first time. What a time to be alive

I mean, in the end, everything that you're looking at is just a collection of cones and rods in your retina. It's the information that it conveys that really matters.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#426

Good video that correctly predicted the image and describes why it looks the way it does [1]. TL; DR The dark area is the entire surface of the event horizon, including the side facing away from us, plus some more due to photons missing the event horizon "directly" being drawn in. One side is brighter due to its being Doppler boosted. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo

Wow, the video you posted is even more informative and clear than the actual press conference, and it was created by someone who hadn't even seen the image yet based purely on the mathematical predictions of what we would see. Kind of sad that after all the amazing effort and resources that have gone into the creating the image that the international team couldn't have featured an explanation as clear as this in thei…

Everyone knew what the image was going to look like, so it's not any harder to prepare in advance.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#427
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The black hole itself is spherical, but the light we're seeing around it isn't projected by the event horizon; rather, it's light from behind/around the black hole that isn't blocked. This video explains in much more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo

But if it's spherical, should not the light be all around it?

Actually, this particular black hole is (probably) not exactly spherically symmetric but only axisymmetric since it is rotating (i.e. it is a so-called Kerr black hole). But disregard the lack of spherical symmetry for a moment (it can still be approximated quite well by a sphere for our purposes, see below), the crucial points are the following:

1. Along with its rotation comes the fact that the black hole drags the surrounding spacetime along with it (whatever this means), including matter. So matter near such a Kerr black hole will start orbiting it automatically. Closely related(×) to this is the fact that, in the close vicinity of a black hole, you typically find a so-called accretion disk of matter that is orbiting the black hole and slowly being eaten by it, while also emitting light because the infalling matter is heating up in the process. Now, the important point is that the disk is really a disk, though(!), meaning that it doesn't completely surround the black hole in all directions, so there are (lots of) angles from which you could actually "look at" the black hole and your view would not be (entirely) blocked by the matter (and the light it emits). I hope this answers your question as to whether the light "should not […] be all around it".

2. In the case of M87 it seems like the axis of rotation is pretty much parallel to our line of sight, meaning that we're actually looking at the black hole "from above" and that our line of sight is pretty much perpendicular to the accretion disk surrounding the hole. In particular, this means we get to see the accretion disk and the black hole's "bald head" in their full glory. Moreover, since we're looking at the black hole "from above", its slight deviation from spherical symmetry doesn't matter and it still looks like a disk to us due to its rotational symmetry in the direction in which it rotates. (Think of how a cylinder looks like a disk/sphere from above.)

(×) To be precise, infalling matter often carries angular momentum (as measured with respect to the black hole's location), i.e. it doesn't fall into the black hole exactly radially but rather sideways, possibly after having orbited the black hole multiple times. This means that when it finally gets absorbed by the black hole, the latter will absorb the matter's angular momentum, too, and start spinning.(××) So the rotation of the black hole, on the one hand, and of the matter outside, on the other hand, are tightly coupled phenomena and disentangling what came first is a "chicken or egg" kind of problem.

(××) Side note: Infalling matter transferring angular momentum to a black hole is the reason why we expect most, if not all black holes in nature to carry angular momentum, i.e. to be of the (axisymmetric) Kerr type instead of the simpler (non-rotating and perfectly spherically symmetric) Schwarzschild type.

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The singularity is likely a mathematical artifact of the fact that GR is insufficient to describe black holes. In reality (quantum gravity) they probably do not exist.

I would not be so sure. Its presence might simply indicate, that black hole's inner volume is infinite.

Could you elaborate on your definition of volume here (are you talking about spatial volume or spacetime volume?) and how the curvature going to infinity at the singularity should imply its infiniteness?

My thought process here is the following: The inside of an (eternal) black hole carries four (Schwarzschild) coordinates t, r, theta, phi – r now being timelike and confined to the interval (0, 2M) and t now being spacelike and being any real number. That is, depending on when (at what time t) you cross the event horizon, you end up at a different point in space. The singularity at r=0 is then a point in your future which, like your own death, you cannot actually see but which you will nevertheless hit in finite proper time.

So in this sense I'd say the volume is very finite (if we disregard the (trivially unbounded) spacelike coordinate t which, as mentioned before, simply corresponds to the time of entering the BH).

Re: Unveiling the first-ever image of a black hole [video]

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really interesting question. (And you did say "graviton particles or gravity waves" in your first post, and I missed that.) At first glance, I think that the gravity information can't escape from inside the event horizon, just like light can't. That means that the event horizon describes a frozen version of the mass inside it, not a current "live" version. And that seems to work, if you think about gravity w…

It’s not that interesting unfortunately, although I liked your approach. A graviton would be just another boson like a photon, and like a photon would be unable to escape. All of the worldlines of a graviton within the event horizon would lead to a collision with th singularity. It’s just another aspect of “No Hair” on the hole. Remember that this applies everything where r≤1. As far as “flat” worldlines I think you…

But there pretty clearly is a gravitational field at r > 1. If that field is made up of gravitons, and a graviton can't escape from the mass to outside r = 1, then what is the source of the gravitons that compose the field at r > 1? If they don't originate at the mass, then... what?
Post reply on HN