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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#421

Post by alangibson »

taude wrote: post #348
jkaplowitz wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. But this many Google employees acting collectively, including some very senior and long-tenured Googlers, meet that additional condition. (Disclosure: having worked at Google I know some names on that list personally, and respect them greatly. I haven't worked at Google since early 2015.)

But this was 139 out of 88K employees [1]. Doesn't seem like that many? How do we interpret the other 87K+? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-ti...

The activation energy to mobilize people is incredibly high, especially on issues that don't directly effect them. And even then it's still huge. People will always debate exactly why, but it does mean that the vast majority of people will remain mostly politically inert.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#422

Post by mandeepj »

alangibson wrote: post #97
nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

You deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

> Ghandi

Maybe, you meant to say - Gandhi [0] ?

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#423

Post by kodablah »

senderista wrote: post #325
Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

OTOH, AMZN and MSFT have never even hesitated to accommodate the Chinese govt's demands. Which other companies do you think would be more ethically conscious than GOOG in these circumstances? (I don't work there.)

> Which other companies do you think would be more ethically conscious than GOOG in these circumstances?

If you wanted to do software work for a company that didn't kowtow to Chinese government demands, chances are 99% of jobs are available to you. Does that mean they could if they would? Unknown, and since regimes change with frequency you can't rely on stated principles, only actions.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#424

Post by noarchy »

TheForumTroll wrote: post #173
dandare wrote: post #22

What am I missing? The cost of switching to an alternative search engine like Bing or Duck is next to zero. (Actually, I dropped Google for Duck just 2 months ago.) Brand is the most valuable asset Google has. Is the Chinese search market - and other evil projects - really worth the damage to Google's public image?

>other evil projects Like a search-engine in NSAland? China isn't any more Evil than The US. Grow up.

As as reddit user might say, the name checks out.

That said, I never see a discussion about China, even here, that isn't saturated with whataboutism, often to the point of hyperbole.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#425

Post by nostrademons »

megaman8 wrote: post #383

I think, what these employees don't realize is: Even when a company places values over profits, it is still in an attempt to maximize profits over the long term. By placing values above profits, it increases it's goodwill with customers thus increasing it's moat and it's retention, as well as it's employee retention. This strategy made sense in the early days. Not anymore. As Google's position becomes increasingly st…

The "values over profits" approach was always more of a recruitment tool than a PR tool. It did give a nice PR boost, but realistically Google's been the best choice of search engine since it came out in 1998. They don't need additional customer goodwill for people to keep using them, they just need to continue to give good results for esoteric queries.

Since 2005, though, good engineers have had lots of options for where to work, many of which pay better or have more growth potential than Google. And "Don't Be Evil" was a great way to persuade them to come work for Google rather than Yelp or Facebook or some hedge fund, and keep them there rather than have them go off and found their own startups that potentially could compete with Google. Because so much of their product moat depends upon technical excellence, keeping the best engineers within the company is critical for them.

I'll predict that if they don't reverse course on this, we'll see a mini-exodus of Googlers who either end up founding their own startups or start working on political-tech projects. Ultimately I think that may be good for the world, but it's not really in Google's long-term interests, although perhaps at this point their moat is entrenched enough and they're big enough that it doesn't really matter.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#426

Post by redthrowaway »

educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

Part of it is almost certainly due to fear of reprisal, but consider also that many people of Chinese descent simply may not agree with the letter. I grew up in a majority-Chinese neighbourhood, and one thing you come to realize is that while many Chinese expats have very complicated feelings about the Party, they still tend to be intensely nationalistic and are very sensitive towards perceived slights directed at China.

They may not want to sign the letter simply because they're offended by singling out China for opprobrium.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#427

Post by AchieveLife »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #401
AchieveLife wrote: post #391

Values are not about profits. They are about Innovation. Which fuels market share and has the intended result of increased profits. The assumption that profits rule the world is a projection. Imo, Innovation rules the world.

"Innovation" is a buzzword. It's so context-dependent that the word by itself is almost meaningless. Values as people understand them are usually about neither profit nor "innovation". It's about people, morality, and goals other than money.

It's a buzz word in marketing.

In strategy, there are 2 types of innovation

Incremental and Disruptive

Both types give organizations increased power over territory.

People are the blood of an organization. Ethics and people determine culture which determines goals.

Innovation is the strategic foothold for keeping an organization alive as it travels into the future.

EDIT: I want to add that all organizations (even non-business) need innovation. Civilizations, Empires, Protests, Support groups, Religious groups, etc... This is due to environments constantly changing. This is what Strategic Planners help with.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#428

Post by ModernMech »

jedberg wrote: post #276
kevmo wrote: post #166

I morally judge (not condemn) people who work at Google. If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. There is tons of great work out there for you. People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom.

> If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. Yes, but the job probably will pay less, at a smaller scale, with fewer perks, and be less interesting. Instead of judging them, perhaps you should support them in condemning their employer for this particular act.

> Yes, but the job probably will pay less, at a smaller scale, with fewer perks, and be less interesting.

Tough moral choices always come with a cost.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#429

Post by jonknee »

blaisio wrote: post #376

It really pains me how Google has changed. When I was younger I always wanted to work there. Now that I've graduated college, I would probably never want to work there.

I think it has to do with size/status too, I couldn't imagine ever wanting to spend my life making a couple of the richest people in the world a tiny bit more marginally wealthy. Bezos, Zuckerberg, Page and Brin all still want more and work smart young people like dogs to get it. Not for me.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#430

Post by naasking »

megaman8 wrote: post #383

I think, what these employees don't realize is: Even when a company places values over profits, it is still in an attempt to maximize profits over the long term. By placing values above profits, it increases it's goodwill with customers thus increasing it's moat and it's retention, as well as it's employee retention. This strategy made sense in the early days. Not anymore. As Google's position becomes increasingly st…

> I think, what these employees don't realize is: Even when a company places values over profits, it is still in an attempt to maximize profits over the long term.

Come on. A lot of people create startups to do something interesting that they're passionate about. Customers and profit merely serve these ends, not the other way around.

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