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Coders Automating Their Own Job

theatlantic.com

421–430 of 499 posts

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the cleverness is in noticing when a task can be automated. Typically, the code itself is trivial. I’d actually argue the reverse. It’s trivial, especially with a little programming background to say “we could automate X”. The devil is in the details. Robustly automating anything of reasonable complexity involves a lot of implementation hickups, dealing with corner cases, gracefully failing, and adding structure and…

I'd never presume to critique your lived experience, but in my life and career away from core developer circles, the instincts required to recognize the potential for automation were just... not part of the conversation. It's similar to how most people will complain about the traffic while a very small number of people will start companies to dig tunnels for maglev vehicles to travel on. Now, I choose to believe (I'm…

> It's similar to how most people will complain about the traffic while a very small number of people will start companies to dig tunnels for maglev vehicles to travel on.

Well to be honest there's only a small number of people with the means and connections to even start such a venture.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, he said it outright: “I think you'll find that most people who 'keep the wallet' are probably not religious...” I don’t think it’s so much a carried or implied assumption as his central thesis, and his justification down the thread is a page of more claims and anecdotes. Call me cynical, but I don’t think there is any “there” there.

" Call me cynical, but I don’t think there is any “there” there. " I provided links to three articles of data to support my primary thesis, moreover, if you do a Google search you will find overwhelming research in support of the fact that 'those who attend regular service are less criminal'. My 'anecdotes' are there to help contextualize it for you. So the 'there' is so obviously 'there' ... the question is, why, ev…

Three articles of “data” yes...

So we have a HuffPo article, an article from MarriPedia (a religious site) and an abstract from the Sociology and Religion department of The Association of Sociolgy and Religion. Three famously unbiased, data-driven outlets (/s) which even then, only tangentially support part of your point, and then only through the loosest of correlations.

Quantity is no substitute for quality.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#423

You know how sometimes you love an article so much that you are annoyed you didn't write it? This does a better job than I could have of tieing together a dozen threads of conversation that I've had with various friends for years. I actually believe that there's a culture war implied in this debate; the question of who deserves to reap the gains of automation is more than just philosophy or ethics. The question "is t…

The problem is automation is never truly automated in most jobs. There's always things that go wrong, always changes being proposed, always explaining needing to be done. Sure, you may find it easy to automate a report or data entry, but what if that data changes or the format changes? Then you have to fix the code.

The code is almost never trivial either. It often involves integrating complex systems and making sure that they work which, if done right, involves writing several unit tests.

Using God is a poor excuse to determine ethics because there's no evidence one exists. It's especially a problem when you don't share the code because then, instead of creating improvement to the job for the company as a whole, you've written a pass to be lazy. The real job comes from supporting whatever you write to the masses. If you don't have any interest in that, you're simply selfish.

The problem is people react in different ways, but it seems like the most common way is to not tell anyone which in my mind is foolish because even if you do get fired, you've improved your skills enough to find a better job anyway. Not only that, I can just as easily come up with an example of someone getting promoted for automating job tasks.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works just as well the other way around. Every time managers are mentioned at HN, some programmer is sure they can do a better job than their/most/all managers.

That's because programmers can do management. It's not unusual to see engineers get tracked into management. I have certainly never seen it go the other way (partially because managers usually make more than engineers I'm sure.)

To add to that, you can't be a human being on this planet without some sort of management skills.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a nice thought, but do you have any evidence to back this up? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim in the OP? > The notion that religious people are less likely to do bad things is highly problematic, objectively and logically. What exactly do you mean by “highly problematic, objectively and logically”? > People should not need to subscribe to a paranormal belief system to understand that theft, ra…

Evidence, no. I haven't done that particular research. However, I do spend a lot of time in conversation with my best friend - who is a late-convert Christian - about the distressingly common phenomena of people who call themselves Christians because it flatters them, but don't actually participate or behave in the way they are supposed to. You know, like the POTUS. I do happen to believe that religious people should…

Yes, 'converts'. That's a whole different story.

Someone who is a 'huge believer' is utterly something different from someone who was born and raised Jewish, or Anglican and was raised that way.

Growing up Jewish/Catholic is mostly a matter of culture, tradition, community, it actually has less to do with faith. That's why I focused on 'attendance'.

They tend to be small-c conservative: normal jobs, kids attend school regularly, don't do drugs, eat reasonably well, vote, take out the garbage, stable family etc. etc..

'Converts' are a whole other issue because ironically people who grow up in a regular faith aren't likely to convert to much at all. Seekers, people who are emotional about stuff, people who have had major tragedies, drug problems, who had major family problems, maybe lived on the street ... those 'new beginning' people are often the most outwardly 'believing' but they represent a totally different cohort of behaviours.

The guy who was abused by his parents, lived on the street and smocked crack and then 'saw the light' and is a 'true believer' - this guy is going to bring most of his broken habits with him. This guy is not Ned Flanders.

The other issues is type of religion: Evangelicalism is kind of like a 'Church of Converts' - they are 'living in faith' type thing. The type who mostly watch 'Church on TV'. This is not the camp of people I mean. Again this is not about how someone outwardly talks about / believes in Jesus or whatever.

Old-school, traditional, mainline Churches are full of boring, very conscientious, small-c conservative people. This is my point. I'm not saying so much it's about faith per say, although that's probably related.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#426
post #139

I've never understood the profound lack of drive and ethics it takes to automate your own job and then conceal it from your employer. The worst jobs I have ever had have ALWAYS been the ones where I'm not contributing to my company in an obvious way, or at consulting firms where we consistently kick ass and finish our sprints early, and then goof off for days on end.

> profound lack of drive That assumes you want to be doing the thing you're doing, rather than some other thing (which potentially doesn't generate money.) Professionally, I'm a programmer. I write code for money. But vocationally , I'm an author. You know what the best job in the world would be, for me? One where I'm paid a living wage to do nothing at all. Then I would have the free time, the energy, and the resour…

Honestly, your comment annoys me because it puts words in my mouth, as if I'm doing what I want to be doing. As if I DREAMED of being a back-end developer my whole life. As if I'm some artless drone that can't understand the mind of an artist.

> That assumes you want to be doing the thing you're doing, rather than some other thing (which potentially doesn't generate money.)

No, it doesn't at all. It means I would rather be doing something more useful than browsing facebook all day for a job I'm being paid to do. It means I don't dump all of my work onto the people around me and be a complete parasite. It means I want stability and praise instead of constant fear of being discovered and fired and ruining my own life.

Most of us do not want to work, that is why we are paid for it. The vast majority of people do their job to get by.

> But vocationally, I'm an author. You know what the best job in the world would be, for me? One where I'm paid a living wage to do nothing at all. Then I would have the free time, the energy, and the resources to write books.

Yes, I would love to hang out at home and read books all day, constantly learning new things.

If I could drop everything and not have to care about having a roof over my head, I would be a video game developer or an artist.

BUT, I don't have rich parents or anybody to support me. I don't have the privilege of not working, most people do not.

So instead I'm a slacker programmer who doesn't work overtime, gets by, and lives his life the best he can in his down time.

> I would say that I have plenty of drive. Just... not for doing the thing that I do for money.

To be clear: I'm specifically talking in the context of people who are so dysfunctional that they automate their jobs and do literally nothing for years. If I was in their position I would find something more interesting to spend my time on.

What do you do after that? Who is going to hire you after being fired for defrauding the company? Also: I believe doing things like this CAN open you up to liability. Also often a company owns everything you do with their computer, or that you do during work hours.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#427
post #319
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well people don't usually like or want to work for little dictators which fire people on a whim for minor things. So your employees (assuming you have any and this is not some hypothetical scenario) won't straight out say those things, they will just quietly do them :)

Just to be clear, I've certainly never fired someone on a whim and in fact I can't even remember the last time I actually had to fire someone. Probably at least 5 years. But we do try really hard to hire people that fit in our culture, and we make sure new employees understand how we work. If someone's just sitting there doing their assigned job as they were trained, they'd be fine but they would probably not get pro…

This is race to the bottom behavior which we largely got away from him post industrial revolution. It's well and good to want employees who are passionate about their jobs, but no one is passionate 100% of the time. The rest of the time, they're going through the motions of pretending to be so they don't get fired. We know this leads to bad results for society in the long run. Mass burnout isn't good for anyone. Which is why we have (mostly cultural) enforced limits on what employers are "allowed" to expect from their employees (like a 9 to 5.) No one has the energy to go above and beyond 100% of the time, and honestly expecting them to do so is delusional. Of course it's beneficial for individual companies to find ways to compel their employees to work more (whether it's "culture" or otherwise,) but it's very bad for the "system" if everyone is doing it. People need to have time to spend money and engage in meaningful leisure to keep the economy spinning.

The only real exception is employees who are really committed to the vision of the company. Ultimately though that's usually only the executive team and early hires since they're the only ones who (usually) materially share in the actual success of the vision beyond just keeping their job. Most of your frontline employees are not going to get any benefit from sacrificing their energy (and there is a real cost to this) and time to fulfill a vision they don't even really contribute to forming, besides just keeping their job. The incentives just aren't usually there. Furthermore, It's common for founders to be very deluded about how "laudable" the vision for their company is. There are very few companies that act as clearly morally good agents in the world. It's not a given that profit-seeking entities inherently behave in a way that's ethical. I just don't see how anyone could possibly expect employees to be 100% committed to executing on the vision of most b2b or even consumer facing businesses. Especially when they don't really reap the benefits of company success.

And yeah, you can argue that you're buying someone's time and you're entitled to expect 100% of their mental capacity etc... during that time. But like anything else in capitalism, you get what you pay for. There are plenty of other employers that don't expect that or don't have the time/resources/collective IQ to determine that you've automated, and I don't see why your employees wouldn't just go work somewhere where they can get away with doing 1/4 of the work for the same salary vis a vis automation unless you provide some extraordinary benefit just for being a "member" of your company. And if being challenged is important to the employee in question (I'm one of these) I'd just go find a job that pays 4x (or make my own) where I could be challenged. In general, you can't eat a corporate vision and it's just not that valuable for most workers (there really are exceptions, companies that are clearly "morally good", but that's the exception and not the rule.)

Which isn't to say it's fun to work at a place where people are just jumping through their daily assigned hoops. But speaking as an employee, I'm certainly not willing to put in extra effort at a company paying at or below market rate with bland corporate vision/culture and/or uninteresting problems. Which seems to be the expectation of most employers. I'm lucky to work at a company where even though I'm ambivalent about moral character of the product (it's b2b stuff, so morally neutral,) I'm well compensated and enjoy a flexible corporate culture and have interesting technical problems to solve. Ultimately though, most companies are bland (in terms of vision) somewhere on the scale of utterly toxic to tolerable (in terms of culture) and totally boring (in terms of the nature of the work.) If you're not paying above market rate in these situations, it's completely absurd to expect employees to give anything "extra." Speaking from experience, most founders/CEOs are completely deluding themselves about how many of the boxes on compensation/culture/vision/interest their company is checking.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#428
post #251

This article really highlights how odd our methods of valuing output are. Ultimately if someone is idling for 6 years because they've written a program to do their job for them, who cares? They are delivering the same output which hopefully the company deemed was valued at X amount BECAUSE it delivers Y amount of profit/returns. This article is actually touching on a deeper level of dysfunction in how we do things li…

An important thing to realize is that you are not paid based on the value you added during the year. You are paid to make sure you do not leave (for a competitor).

I think in the long run, acting in the best interest of the business when you are employed for that business would result in superior income/career than doing otherwise.

Another option is finding possibilities for automation that could apply to other companies with similar problems, and starting a separate company selling such automation services. A consultancy could work, too.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#429
post #5

As a former trader/developer/quant I often felt that "automating myself out of a job" was my goal. If we could build properly architected systems that were self-healing when things went wrong, turned themselves on before the market opened, traded all day, made money and shut down for the night... then eventually my role would devolve into monitoring and ultimately into nothing... In practise, achieving some sort of "…

And the beauty of being a trader/quant is that once you come up with such an automation, you will capture a lot of the upside as the company will not want to have you leave for a competitor and implement a similar strategy there.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#430
post #417

I work in Finance/Investment Industry and was "let go" from one of the companies I worked at because I automated a large portion of my job (among other things). I even wrote an instruction manual for the entire process (not knowing that I could/would be let go). They ended up replacing me with a guy who didn't know how to program, but had 20 years of experience. Live and learn.

That should look really good on your resume, or probably could be the basis for a consulting business.

Yep, I started a consulting venture ~2 years ago. Funny enough, the guy who "let me go" also said I should start a consulting business.

https://www.gotemstl.com/

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