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US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

zdnet.com

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Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#421

Post by gleenn »

pubutil wrote: post #419
TechieKid wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several recent HN stories have had this kind of comment (first noticed with the Securus submission) that's a weird mix of "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" and "They will never come for you, you're too unimportant." Is this a sustained campaign or just a way for folks who have contributed to these issues to feel good about themselves?

Wilsonnb hit the nail on the head, it’s just how some people feel. Though I don’t doubt that some people involved in the creation of this phenomenon use the argument to justify their work. I had a hard time understanding why people wouldn’t be more conscientious of their privacy, until I had discussions about the issue with people close to me. My folks had a very similar sentiment to the typical “if you have nothing…

I'm surprised you've had conversations with tech laymen that understand what Cambridge Analytica is guilty of. Everyone I talk to, even reasonably tech-literate people, still don't understand the repercussions. I even point out the possibility of throwing a presidential election, and my mother said, "so what, isn't that just people pushing for the guy they want?"

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#422

Post by Lionsion »

komali2 wrote: post #318
superkuh wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason that cell phone networks actually work (they're effectively decentralized networks) is that they pay the big bucks to rent space on high towers, building roofs, etc. The only thing that matters for radio communications is line of sight. The only thing that gives you line of sight is relative height. The only thing that gives you consistent height is money.

>The only thing that gives you consistent height is money. Or long rope, a balloon, and a heat source ;)

> Or long rope, a balloon, and a heat source ;)

Good luck if a storm hits.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#423

Post by jstarfish »

gebeeson wrote: post #155
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an amateur radio operator, I would expect nothing less for carrying a highly networked radio transceiver with loads of sensors including geopositioning. Simply put: don't want to be tracked? Put your phone in a lead sealed box or leave it at home. Tracking only tracks the phone , not your person.

Even simpler: don't want to be tracked? Don't have a mobile phone.

It doesn't help.

Your next car will support telemetrics. Your insurer will know how fast and how often you drive. Your wife will know where you've been going after work. The cloud will gather and retain everything else of non-obvious value, up to the point where it all magically disappears when your self-piloting car drives itself through a schoolyard at recess and the company claims they don't have enough data to determine their responsibility, and insinuates that perhaps it was your fault.

All your future appliances will be factory-bugged so Amazon can listen to you arguing with your wife and sell you marital counseling books. Or they sell you imported counterfeit electronic shit, leaving bored interns with unchecked privilege (or strangers poking around on SHODAN) to activate those products' extraneous cameras to spy on your daughter undressing.

The ubiquity of cellphones in the hands of the masses mindlessly recording every droll moment of their lives in public for a chance at YouTube fame, combined with better and better facial|licenseplate|whatever-recognition algorithms means you're always on a camera somewhere, your movements being tracked and your identity easily annotated. Your wife's divorce lawyer will have a field day with this.

Don't want to be tracked? Hoard cash and modify the serial numbers. Throw away everything with a network interface or bidirectional antennas of any kind. Don't leave the house. Slap tinfoil on your windows. Make yourself a nifty pirate hat with the remainder. Your friends and neighbors will think it's endearing for a while, then they'll stop coming around for some reason.

Just don't take a selfie of yourself in your fortress of solitude without scrubbing the geolocation data from the EXIF tags!

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#424

Post by throw000013 »

random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

Defense contractors have been using this capability for competitive intelligence for the last few years. Namely performing surveillance of contractors both internal and external to their company. Private investigators are using the same capability for similar purposes, especially for litigation support. “How” is never required to be revealed in court because the primary purpose is to find information that will “encourage” the other party to not go to court. If there was a way to audit queries/lookups performed against specific telephone numbers I think a lot of people would be shocked.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#425

Post by mehrdadn »

Illniyar wrote: post #264
dude123456 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some of crapware can be avoided by using custom ROMs, but not all of it. For example: Qualcomm IZat location services and other location-based trustzone applets remain running even on custom ROMs.

How is it sending the data though? if it's using mobile plans, wouldn't it be noticeable on the data usage plan? (or is it that manufacturers have agreements with carriers to not charge for it?)

This is my question too... nobody has explained this part.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#426

Post by Lionsion »

noir_lord wrote: post #263
twostoned wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the discussion in this thread doing such a thing seems relatively easy. Obligatory Orwell: “The most gifted of [the Proletariate], who might possibly become a nuclei of discontent, are simply marked down by the Thought Police and eliminated.”

Yep, that's on the simpler end of the spectrum, they can/could be far more insidious and subtle. It's horrible but beyond supporting ORG, EFF and writing to my MP (I'm in the UK) not sure what else I can do, even if I protect myself from it my family and friends are still potentially fucked.

> ORG

What's ORG?

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#427

Post by extr »

frockington wrote: post #371
brewdad wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you changing insurance companies regularly? Why would an insurance company have any reason to reduce your rates unless legally required to? Even if they've been overcharging you for years compared to competitors, if you aren't calling them up and threatening to change insurers, why would they ever give you money back?

Probably the same reason airplanes have frequent flyer miles. If a customer has proven to be low hassle you don't want to lose them

Yes, if it gets to the point where they've already shopped around you're going to be paying a much higher price to retain that customer, than if you simply gave them a reasonably competitive premium or deserved discount. Insurance companies are not like cable, customers are free to switch to one of many options at any time. Acquisition and churn costs are huge problems.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#428

Post by nerdponx »

random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

> This data is sold to whoever wants it. Hedge funds or services who analyze it for hedge funds is the big one. It's normal to track hundreds of millions of people a day and trade stocks based on where they go. This isn't fantasy, it's what happens every day.

Honestly, this is the least bothersome part of the whole thing. The only problem is that there's no way I trust anyone involved to properly anonymize and secure the data in question.

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#429

Post by noir_lord »

Lionsion wrote: post #426
noir_lord wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's on the simpler end of the spectrum, they can/could be far more insidious and subtle. It's horrible but beyond supporting ORG, EFF and writing to my MP (I'm in the UK) not sure what else I can do, even if I protect myself from it my family and friends are still potentially fucked.

> ORG What's ORG?

https://www.openrightsgroup.org/

Re: US cell carriers are selling access to real-time phone location data

#430

Post by Frondo »

heurist wrote: post #177
random6547545 wrote: post #44

Throwaway account. I work in location / mapping / geo. Some of us have been waiting for this to blow (which it hasn't yet). The public has zero idea how much personal location data is available. It's not just your cell carrier. Your cell phone chip manufacturer, GPS chip manufacturer, phone manufacturer and then pretty much anyone on the installed OS (android crapware) is getting a copy of your location data. Usually…

I'm in the space as well. I've tried telling my congressmen but they ignore me. I'm waiting for the backlash, especially will all the recent privacy issues. It hasn't happened yet and the problem is so large that I honestly doubt whether the public will ever truly grasp what the scope. The advice I always give when this topic comes up us to be very careful with what you install on your phone. The least expensive mobi…

What about a state senator or representative? Could your state start enacting a privacy framework, that would apply to businesses that wanted to do business in your state? Sort of like California emissions for cars.
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