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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#421

Post by papermule »

cornyNetHandle wrote: post #415
papermule wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since running is largely recreational most runners avoid congested areas on purpose. If this changes it will have to be revisited. Nice strawman though.

Was trying more for reducto ad absurdum. I didn't come up with the idea of having laws to separate runners from walkers, you did. I was just exploring the enforcement mechanism for such a suggestion.

Well I think the issue is that unlike the pavement, the roads are much more stringently regulated with sign posts, markings and lights.

For as long as cyclists have to cycle on the roads as we know them a cyclist should be required to demonstrate that they understand the signs and rules of the road. That could be by presenting their official drivers license, or, should they not have one, be required to take a theory test. I think that would be a sensible first step.

You could then imagine a practical test for hazard perception, efficient use of gearing and safe filtering through queues of traffic.

Naturally, people don't walk on the road, and pavements don't have the same kind of mandatory control flow unless they intersect with the road, and most children are taught how to cross the road from a young age.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#422

Post by brewdad »

papermule wrote: post #410
brewdad wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. Today, drivers who have their license revoked or car impounded still find ways to drive cars, at least in the US. The barrier to picking up a new bike after having yours impounded by police is far lower. If it's forcing a baseline requirement for skills and knowledge,…

> What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like. I don't know what any of the road signs mean and I have no experience or training in hazard…

If you choose to venture out onto the roads with no idea what the signs mean or how to avoid obstacles, good luck to you.

Realistically, every 5 year old knows what the colors on a traffic light mean and what a stop sign tells you.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#423

Post by cgriswald »

rout39574 wrote: post #387
papermule wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence? Of course! In a world where there were only cyclists there would still need to be a set of rules that all cyclists are required to follow. Those might include how to behave at intersections, how and when you should overtake other cyclists, and so on. To be allowed to cycle, each cyclist should…

> Of course! In a world where there were only cyclists there would still need to be a set of rules that all cyclists are required to follow. What about walking? People can run into other people, knock them down stairs, it's a risk... I think that most observers find the idea that bike use is a public hazard, and must be restricted to be obviously ludicrous.

I don't. In the United States, bicyclists must follow largely the same rules of the road that drivers of motor vehicles must follow. They can even be ticketed for violating those rules although usually the tickets don't have much in the way of teeth (except things like DUI while biking).

Here in the Bay Area, it's a rare bicyclist that actually follows the rules. Talking to other bicyclists, I've found a large number of them are simply ignorant to the fact that the rules apply to them as well; or they have adopted some bizarre version of the rules or a sense of entitlement.

I could talk anecdotes for hours, but one particularly egregious example is a bicyclist who showed up to a 4-way stop after I was already moving through the intersection, cut through my path, and gave me the finger, all without even slowing down, much less stopping.

Requiring bicyclists to pass at least a basic test would go a long way towards clearing things up or at least changing the "bicyclists don't have to follow the rules" culture that exists here, making the roads safer for themselves, walkers/runners, and drivers alike.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#424

Post by scatters »

papermule wrote: post #410
brewdad wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. Today, drivers who have their license revoked or car impounded still find ways to drive cars, at least in the US. The barrier to picking up a new bike after having yours impounded by police is far lower. If it's forcing a baseline requirement for skills and knowledge,…

> What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like. I don't know what any of the road signs mean and I have no experience or training in hazard…

The law does require you to understand road signs and behave accordingly. It doesn't require you to get a piece of paper from a bureaucrat to attest to it.

I very much doubt that you would be arrested if you tried to drive a car without a license. Anecdotally, I've never had my driving license checked by a traffic officer. The large number of undocumented residents who are presumptively driving without a valid license is another point.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#425

Post by pdelbarba »

Zak wrote: post #46
bdamm wrote: post #14

Good write-up about a phenomenon I’d never expect to matter in a car. In aircraft it is the norm for mid-air collisions to occur this way. For example, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 but there are many others. Aircraft in the US now have autonomous transponders broadcasting their location to each other. The author overlooks this fact since the “pilot training” to avoid this problem actually…

> The author overlooks this fact since the “pilot training” to avoid this problem actually does not work very well. This is critical in the context of the author claiming that drivers should be expected to recognize the risk in this situation. Pilots are required to undergo significantly more training and expected to be much more methodical about operating their vehicles than drivers. In spite of all that, they're no…

IIRC CBDR is not really in the FAA PPL curriculum at all. I only recall a quick mention from my CFI when I went through it. It's much more heavily emphasized to military pilots as missiles are designed to predict an impact point and fly towards that rather than the aircraft (lead pursuit) so pilots are trained to determine if a missile is maintaining guidance towards them by seeing if it appears stationary in space.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#426

Post by papermule »

brewdad wrote: post #422
papermule wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like. I don't know what any of the road signs mean and I have no experience or training in hazard…

If you choose to venture out onto the roads with no idea what the signs mean or how to avoid obstacles, good luck to you. Realistically, every 5 year old knows what the colors on a traffic light mean and what a stop sign tells you.

There are many more rules that just red, yellow green and the stop sign. It would be nice if the highway code was that simple though.

For example, how to navigate a busy multi-lane roundabout safely as a cyclist, such as Old Street roundabout in London, which looks like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Old_Stre..., or this roundabout in Bristol, UK: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B2NMCH/aerial-view-looking-down-on-...

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#427

Post by cornyNetHandle »

papermule wrote: post #421
cornyNetHandle wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was trying more for reducto ad absurdum. I didn't come up with the idea of having laws to separate runners from walkers, you did. I was just exploring the enforcement mechanism for such a suggestion.

Well I think the issue is that unlike the pavement, the roads are much more stringently regulated with sign posts, markings and lights. For as long as cyclists have to cycle on the roads as we know them a cyclist should be required to demonstrate that they understand the signs and rules of the road. That could be by presenting their official drivers license, or, should they not have one, be required to take a theory…

I walk on the road all the time, having grown up in an area with plenty of rural roads without pavements.

I would get into a ton of shit should I visit anywhere that had jaywalking laws, though in the places they exist and are enforced, they presumably get by without a dedicated licensing and testing regime.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#428

Post by PeterisP »

brewdad wrote: post #411
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You simply wait for a gap in the flow of bikes, and pull all the way to the curb, so there's no gap. Then you only really have to worry about the bikes in front of you, and any pedestrians in the crossing.

Portland gets this wrong in every possible way. First, drivers turning right must yield to bikes in the bike lane passing on the right (not unreasonable IMO). However, state law also makes it illegal to pull into the bike lane and establish a position to turn right. Add in pedestrians and it's almost impossible to make a right turn on some roads at rush hour. For some reason, we seem to have a lot of car/bike/ped con…

Around here it's generally solved by having separate traffic lights for cars, pedestrians and the bike lane, and having some extra time every cycle of lights where it's red for bikes and pedestrians but green for cars to enable those turns.

E.g. this shot in google maps - https://www.google.lv/maps/@56.9578862,24.1189538,3a,75y,240... ; it's green for cars, but red for the bike lane on the right side.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#429

Post by mariojv »

klodolph wrote: post #207
mnw21cam wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why mini-roundabouts were invented.

America doesn't really have those... they would be as alien and confusing as a four-way stop in Europe. I can't imagine it not being dangerous.

They exist in some parts of New England and in a few shopping centers in Texas. You're right about them confusing motorists though. New Englanders generally understand what to do, but I've seen many Texans just stop in the middle of the roundabout for no good reason. Maybe if more were built behavior would change.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#430

Post by papermule »

scatters wrote: post #424
papermule wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the actual gain to society from requiring a cyclist license? Today, without licenses, police can and do hand out moving violations to cyclists. I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like. I don't know what any of the road signs mean and I have no experience or training in hazard…

The law does require you to understand road signs and behave accordingly. It doesn't require you to get a piece of paper from a bureaucrat to attest to it. I very much doubt that you would be arrested if you tried to drive a car without a license. Anecdotally, I've never had my driving license checked by a traffic officer. The large number of undocumented residents who are presumptively driving without a valid licens…

> I very much doubt that you would be arrested if you tried to drive a car without a license.

Without a valid driving license you will not be able to get insurance, unless you stole an insured vehicle from your parents or off the street.

Patrol cars in the UK and Europe have cameras that read number plates and check a database against all insured vehicles. If the car is not insured you will get pulled over, upon which you will be asked to present your driving license.

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