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Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

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Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#421

Post by akhilcacharya »

jedberg wrote: post #22

There is definitely an education bubble. It's way too easy to get money for college. You hear a lot of stories about the increasing costs of college and crushing debt on graduation, but you don't hear a lot of stories of "I wanted to go to college but couldn't get a loan". Almost everyone gets approved, regardless of their future ability to pay it back. We need a fundamental shift in the way college is paid for. Some…

I'm still not convinced of the efficacy of the federal government guaranteeing loans to expensive private institutions (especially for-profit schools that prey on returning veterans and the poor). Instead, I think that they should only guarantee loans for cheaper public schools or for a specific dollar amount.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#422

Post by dvcrn »

ma2rten wrote: post #323
rjbwork wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just talking with my boss about how they do it in Germany. Essentially they do heavy tracking, if you can't cut it in the college track, you get put into blue collar training and apprentice programs. This is why they are such an industrial powerhouse still - they have a well prepared white collar and blue collar work force.

I went to school in Germany and live in the US now. I think every system has it's pros and cons. The German education system is interesting, because it's different from other countries. However, if it wasn't for the hefty price of education (including how important it is what school district you are in) I would prefer the US education system overall. In Germany it's easy to be put on one of the two lower tracks which…

Yup. I ended up in my apprenticeship because during elementary school I wanted to go to the school where all my friends went even though my scores were better. Stupid I know but I was a kid that wasn't able to make reasonable decisions.

Yet I ended up through a apprenticeship in Software Engineering and I could go back at any time and finish my 12 years then go to university. Part of me wants to go study and get a degree, but all universities I inquired at rejected me for not having 12 years despite working for 8 years now.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#423

Post by tobltobs »

ma2rten wrote: post #323
rjbwork wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just talking with my boss about how they do it in Germany. Essentially they do heavy tracking, if you can't cut it in the college track, you get put into blue collar training and apprentice programs. This is why they are such an industrial powerhouse still - they have a well prepared white collar and blue collar work force.

I went to school in Germany and live in the US now. I think every system has it's pros and cons. The German education system is interesting, because it's different from other countries. However, if it wasn't for the hefty price of education (including how important it is what school district you are in) I would prefer the US education system overall. In Germany it's easy to be put on one of the two lower tracks which…

It is true that it is too easy to be put on one of the two lower tracks during primary school. But there are multiple options (Fachhochschule, Berufsakademie) to go to university after you have finished your apprenticeship. Fachhochschule is free and in the case of the Berufsakademie you even get some money from a company while studying.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#424

Post by tobltobs »

dvcrn wrote: post #422
ma2rten wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to school in Germany and live in the US now. I think every system has it's pros and cons. The German education system is interesting, because it's different from other countries. However, if it wasn't for the hefty price of education (including how important it is what school district you are in) I would prefer the US education system overall. In Germany it's easy to be put on one of the two lower tracks which…

Yup. I ended up in my apprenticeship because during elementary school I wanted to go to the school where all my friends went even though my scores were better. Stupid I know but I was a kid that wasn't able to make reasonable decisions. Yet I ended up through a apprenticeship in Software Engineering and I could go back at any time and finish my 12 years then go to university. Part of me wants to go study and get a de…

Could'nt you go to a Fachhochschule with your apprenticeship in Software Engineering?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#425

Post by hycaria »

on_and_off wrote: post #339
ConceptJunkie wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with subsidizing college in any way, including the current student loan system is that it encourages people to go to college whether it makes sense or not, and as several people have mentioned in this discussion, in a lot of cases, it doesn't make sense. Anyone who is properly motivated should be able to go to college, but when I hear cries for a free college education, I can imagine that that would stimu…

Higher education is pretty cheap in France. It is not like it was a vacation. In most cases, you still have to pay a rent, food, etc ... And you commit several years of your life to it, that's the most precious resource you can give. I can't believe I am discussing this to be honest, that's an insane argument.

Come on.

Poor people get scholarships, get dismissed from university cost even.

And aside from wealth, everyone can repeatedly enroll in classes for many years (although if you don't pass you have to payback what was given to you) and waste everyone's ressources for useless, unfinished degrees (hello first year of sociology or other bullshit).

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#426

Post by zaarn »

ma2rten wrote: post #323
rjbwork wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just talking with my boss about how they do it in Germany. Essentially they do heavy tracking, if you can't cut it in the college track, you get put into blue collar training and apprentice programs. This is why they are such an industrial powerhouse still - they have a well prepared white collar and blue collar work force.

I went to school in Germany and live in the US now. I think every system has it's pros and cons. The German education system is interesting, because it's different from other countries. However, if it wasn't for the hefty price of education (including how important it is what school district you are in) I would prefer the US education system overall. In Germany it's easy to be put on one of the two lower tracks which…

Primary Schools offer additional help to bring immigrant children up to speed with their german, though I'm not sure how many families use this option.

You can also almost always switch tracks, the farther down you are one track the harder it gets to switch up. I went for the second lowest (Realschule) and then went to a tertiary school (Fachoberschule). With that I can study in a University for Applied Sciences (different from normal University).

The german education system has many options open, the general push in the lower two tracks is to get you into a job as early as possible (there are lots of job fairs I went to) but still permit you to pick any of the other 20 options.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#427

Post by hycaria »

JonFish85 wrote: post #53
murph-almighty wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'd probably see a lot more STEM degrees and a lot fewer of everything else I honestly think art schools are going to start running into problems convincing people it's a good idea to pay 60k a year for minimal ROI. My cousin wants to go into stage drama, and I don't want to tell her to not pursue her dream, but I think it's a lot to ask her to put herself in debt for years for a piece of paper that says she can…

> People who came from my alma mater who majored in drama can't say the same. Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement.

There's no other way in my opinion too. This is super stressful to me. I started working a few years ago, working my ass off with a full time job and part time one at night and I wonder if it's going to be of any worth someday or if I'm just working against my own later benefits by putting myself in the "too wealthy compared to my age class future average" fringe.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#428

Post by zaarn »

Paul-ish wrote: post #322
lrem wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries provide free (you don't even have to buy overpriced books or any other scam) education on all levels (including PhD). Even the middling ones like Poland. You simply estimate your rough requirements for different specialties and fund that many students. Admissions can become somewhat cutthroat (50 applicants per slot are not unheard of), but that only works for the better.

> Admissions can become somewhat cutthroat This is what I've heard about a lot of places that provide good higher education. I would be concerned in the US that college readiness correlates a little bit too closely to familial wealth.

Atleast in germany, the only thing that matters is your grade.

When a course in a university has more applicants than slots, the required grades are lowered (1 or 15 being best, 6 or 1 worst depending on your previous education) until the number of applicants fits into the number of slots.

Since all previous education is free, family wealth matters little (though it still plays a role)

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#429

Post by simias »

Domenic_S wrote: post #414
dmschulman wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not presenting your opinion on the subject of vaccines though, you're presenting your opinion on the subject of having opinions about vaccines. Give me your nuanced thoughts on vaccines if you want to have a productive discussion with someone. I think we're seeing a completely different trend, spurred on by social media and the ability for people to broadcast their own messages/opinions about a topic, and that…

It's so wild how certain topics will trigger a response. Your comment was about nuance, and I replied with (what was meant to be) a mostly complimentary comment, expanding on that topic. But you latched on to the vaccine part of it that was meant only as an example. Something about that subject really gets people's blood pressure up; I notice my comment above was downvoted as I predicted - although not by you, as far…

My problem with your previous comment is that while on the surface it's perfectly reasonable, it's also unsubstantial and the type of fluff you hear as an introduction to a flat earther youtube video. The good old "show both sides of the issue" that's used by all fringe theorists ever to get people to discuss their side of the story.

Of course that's a complete strawman on my part here, you didn't say any of this. But consider this for instance:

> For instance, the GP mentioned young earthers. There are many different kinds of "alternative" stances on the age of the earth, and only one (very) extreme position is "earth is 6000 years old". But if you mention anything about the age of the earth that isn't exactly *the universe is 13.8 billion years old and the earth was formed around 4.5 billion years ago" you are considered a "young earther", lumped in with the creationist crazies.

I could do the same thing about flat earth or, if I wanted to heat up the discussion even more, the holocaust.

You can and you should question everything all the time, but at some point we have to reach a consensus and move on. We can't spend all of our time proving again and again and again that the earth is round, that Earth is not 10000 years old and that vaccines do not cause autism. If new evidence surfaces it should be reconsidered of course but the case for the anti-vaxxers is pretty weak as far as I can tell.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#430

Post by lotsofpulp »

damontal wrote: post #297
lotsofpulp wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But quality of life is much higher for the software engineer, so assuming it's just as easy to be both, pay would need to be much higher for the plumber to incentivize people to do it.

Is it? I had some plumbers doing work in my house last year. They were pretty happy guys. Playing music on the radio, singing while they were at work. Meanwhile i'm here sitting at a desk all day.

A huge potential loss is in the marriage market, where being a plumber isn't as marketable as doctor/engineer/lawyer/financier. Also, big loss is wear and tear on your body from manual work, higher risks due to driving all the time, variable hours due to emergency nature of work, and finally, it doesn't scale well. Plumbers are well compensated, but is it enough to give up the chance to earn much more in businesses that scale up much easier?
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