Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook • Hacker News Board

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#421

Post by valuearb » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:37 PM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #99

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

By default, big companies always get preferential treatment from governments. Open a mega-factory? They get tax cuts, cheap real estate, free utilities. Why? Those shiny new jobs look great on a politician's resume for the next election... What does the little business guy get? A letter of "don't forget to pay your taxes in full or else" It's time to accept the fact that governments are NOT a fair and impartial warde…

Apples not getting any direct government subsidies. It’s paying more taxes than anyone else in the world, and doing it legally.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#422

Post by nickpp » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:38 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #369

nickpp wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise some good points. But I strongly believe in the innovative solutions brought forth by the free markets. It's not called "the invisible hand" for nothing. I am old enough to remember when whole IT industry used to be in the shadow of Microsoft (and IBM before that). Nobody could see a solution out of it! The government even tried to fix the problem and failed. Ten years later, Microsoft is becoming a nice pl…

So now we're in the shadow of Google/Apple instead of Microsoft. Whoop-de-fricken-doo. The larger problem of corporate feudalism remains unaddressed by the "invisible hand". Lords come and go but in the end we all remain serfs.

In the end we all win.

We win as consumers because of all the tremendous value and products those damn corporations keep creating. Like smaller, faster and cheaper computers and whatnot.

We also win as citizens because those corporations buy stuff, create jobs and pay taxes (as much as asked from them and not more!).

And we can also win as Lords by simply buying some shares and owning those evil corporations...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#423

Post by valuearb » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

earthtolazlo wrote: post #111

erickj wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving abroad, I now fully understand the feeling behind "Taxation without representation is tyranny".

You are welcome to give up your American citizenship if that income tax becomes too burdensome for you.

You aren’t allowed to give up your US citizenship without paying at least 10 more years of US taxes. Even if your citizenship was inherited and you haven’t lived in the s since you were a toddler.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#424

Post by pc86 » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #409

dontreact wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook has made statements in the past that they stick to the letter and the spirit of the law. The least they could do is report these tax loopholes: post them publicly to make it easier for the government to close them. Instead, they are kept a secret. Why do you think that is?

Okay, let's start there: pass a law to require companies to report these tax loopholes.

Please explain the difference between "tax loophole" and "tax law."

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#425

Post by trgv » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Sometimes I wish I could compartmentalize my decision-making process like this. I can't though. Actions usually have moral implications totally apart from their legality, and these implications seem at least as important as the legal side of things.

In terms of closing tax loopholes: tax loopholes are like vulnerabilities in software. They will always exist despite the best effort of lawmakers (programmers, in this analogy). The difference is that lawyers (hackers) don't go to jail for finding and exploiting loopholes.

In my opinion the root of this problem is the legal profession. The practice of law seems almost irreparably broken to me. Money should not have relevance in a courtroom, but it obviously does, it always has, and it will continue to. I have no clue how to fix this, but I think it's a huge problem in liberal western democracies whether it's patent trolling, Apple/X megacorp employing an army of layers to avoid paying taxes, or Harvey Weinstein/Bill Cosby committing sexual assault/rape over and over again without ever visiting a jail cell.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#426

Post by jokoon » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

I don't care about a lot of political subject, would it be inequality, welfare, immigration, racism, etc.

But tax havens seem like a huge threat, and my favorite subject of opinion of all, and they are a big source of problem in how the economy is unfair and how any country's budget is unbalanced. Weirdly, libertarians will defend the existence of tax havens.

I'm really happy to see that some political actors are finally advancing on that subject. Even in terms of geopolitics, it will be delicate, but I don't care, this is the largest abscess to burst, and it's crazy it's not a bigger issue and that it took such a long time. It's really time that this gets fixed.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#427

Post by dontreact » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #409

dontreact wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook has made statements in the past that they stick to the letter and the spirit of the law. The least they could do is report these tax loopholes: post them publicly to make it easier for the government to close them. Instead, they are kept a secret. Why do you think that is?

Okay, let's start there: pass a law to require companies to report these tax loopholes.

The whole problem with all of this is that it's very hard (and maybe even intractable?) to define in advance what a "tax loophole" is. If it was easy to define then we could just write it out of the tax code.

I think the only way is for companies to make strong commitments to doing so, so in the case of future leaks like this or further investigative journalism, we would all have something to point to.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#428

Post by cr1895 » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

CamTin wrote: post #378

cr1895 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the bank. Essentially it boils down to whether the "foreign" bank is willing to go through the compliance and data-sharing that is impressed upon them by working with Americans. Some do, many understandably can't be bothered.

Right, so why all the fuss over whether some of them don't bother? How many banks do you need? As long as there's one that will take your business, why should you care that the one down the block won't? I guess it could be an issue if you're in a rural area with limited banking competition? Even then, most banking is done online now and a couple of trips a year to the "big city" to get some business taken care of (se…

"All of the fuss" is not so much that the choices of banking available to an American abroad are reduced (though they are, and not necessarily due to the laws and regulations of the host country; and of course it depends how difficult it is based on the country) but that FINCEN/FBAR compliance which is in principle aimed at those evading taxes actually results in real pain for typical Americans who are living and working abroad, who only want to do right tax-wise.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#429

Post by valuearb » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #381

_acme wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you have another citizenship to turn to. Being stateless isn't an option.

> Being stateless isn't an option. That is unless you're a rich company - then you can create shell entities with effectively no domicile that earn income, but aren't taxed in any country. Corporations are people, my friend. People with extraordinary abilities.

They shouldn’t be people, and shouldn’t pay income tax.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#430

Post by l8again » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

>> Did you want to make zero-tax status a precondition for establishing tax residency there? What gives you the right to do so?

This is a pretty twisted way of publicly shaming someone for just asking. They have all the right to put whatever condition on any country they want. Any country has the right to not accept their conditions.

If the intent of the author is to publicly shame Apple and paint them as being somehow culpable for the poor conditions of the said countries, then its not working. There are jobs that Apple bring to these countries that kick start their economies. Again, its not for nothing that countries _agree_ with their pre-conditions.

The other argument presented here is that smaller companies don't get to play by these rules. Again, they can. Just that there is no incentive for a country to not tax smaller companies.

Bottom line: Apple brings more to the countries than just its taxes, and that's why the countries are fine with their special tax status.