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Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

dave.cheney.net

421–430 of 536 posts

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Matrix & Riot are entirely FOSS, please do spell out its obnoxiousnesses (rant here, or file on http://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues ) so we and the wider community can go fix it. Agreed that Riot is too heavy; we're currently doing a performance blitz on it. In terms of Matrix itself being too heavy... we're still waiting for anyone to contribute a more efficient transport, but turns out HTTP+JSON works…

At no point did I imply it's garbage because it's FOSS. I'm always down for more FOSS, and don't ever paint me otherwise. It's bad because the protocol is heavy and complex. Plenty of technical complications detailed in other comments.

At no point did I suggest you thought it was garbage because it's FOSS - I was just pointing out that because it's FOSS we're dependent on the wider community to contribute constructive feedback (and ideally code) to improve it.

So far the other feedback seems to be "HTTP is overly complex" (which is very subjective), "Matrix is too tied to HTTP" (despite evidence to the contrary), matrix-js-sdk is slow (which we've fixed), and "Riot is extremely resource heavy" (which is relatively true - it's already better than Slack, but we're working on it).

I'd genuinely like to know what your specific bad experience was so we can fix it, as it seems to have really pissed you off to be seen as "garbage" and "not remotely suitable" and "not suitable for business" :)

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#422
post #324
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably wouldnt hire a developer that didn't use IRC

Because in the skillset of developers, IRC is such a difficult one to acquire?

Grep isn't a difficult skill to acquire but I wouldn't hire someone that didn't know it. Some skills can be good proxies for a range of other skills an experience and a lot of developers are in that "don't know what they don't know" range.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#423

Issue #2, that slack is based on synchronous communication, is something that is always ignored. Sometimes I log in to slack and see a conversation that I want to add something to, but it is 4 hours old with 50+ new messages on varying topics. Even with Slack's new threaded messages it is hard to evolve the conversation after all the synchronous folks have moved on to other topics.

The biggest problem I had is that if you wanted to scroll back through those 50+ new messages you need 32GB of RAM.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit and Facebook ate forums. Reddit in particular fills that interest-niche conversation role to a degree that it strangles forums.

Reddit IS a forum platform. Anyone who wants to create a subreddit can do exactly that. Reddit did not replace forums, just the software that they run on.

BUMP!

Doesn't work with reddit.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your justification of why "it's essentially impossible to reasonably port it to a sensible transport protocol" appears to be an explanation of how one could reasonably port it to a sensible transport protocol (JSON over some flavour of socket) ;) Totally agreed that HTTP is inefficient and increases the potential bug surface a bit. However, the ubiquity and convenience empirically seems to outweigh the inefficiency a…

> Your justification of why "it's essentially impossible to reasonably port it to a sensible transport protocol" appears to be an explanation of how one could reasonably port it to a sensible transport protocol (JSON over some flavour of socket) ;) Except for the fact that it's necessarily redefining quite a bit of the protocol, also necessarily further complicating any possible universal implementations because this…

From my perspective, the defining bit of Matrix is the data model (eventually-consistent decentralised Merkle DAGs), the schema, and the semantics of the API - e.g. what arguments do you pass when you paginate? what data do you get when you sync? how do you tell it where to sync from? etc. I genuinely don't care whether you do RPC via an HTTP PUT, a COAP PUT, an MQTT Publish, or some funky custom RPC of your own devising - or whether you encode the data as JSON, CBOR, BSON, protobufs or whatever. To say that switching transport from HTTP to Websockets is "necessarily redefining quite a bit of the protocol" entirely misses the point. It's just a transport! We want people to propose alternative transports!

In terms of the websocket transport proposal requiring HTTP to set up the websocket... yes, this is true. I guess you really don't like HTTP - I'm amazed you're willing to use it to communicate on HN! In terms of Matrix being a "huge dysfunctional mess that's essentially impossible to implement securely" - you're entitled to your opinion; it's just a shame it doesn't seem to be particularly well-founded.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#426
post #213

A great alternative to Slack, in the spirit of IRC, is matrix[1]. It has lots of clients, and a great vision. You use an online client called riot[2] which uses the matrix protocol. There are other clients available[3] including desktop clients. There's E2E encryption coming to more of the clients which is inspired from signal protocol (double ratchet part of it specifically), without Forward secrecy so as to maintai…

Another great alternative to Slack in the spirit of IRC is "Internet Relay Chat".

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#427

Forums. I don't know why the internet got tired of them, even when they sometimes fit the bill so well. Slack is chat. Mailing lists are far too outdated. Forums are good, and some good people out there are still developing them.

Forums. I don't know why the internet got tired of them

I have recently been participating on Reddit and I still like HN, but I am spending less time of late on another forum I still belong to. For me, part of the answer is that forums are heavily influenced by moderators and most of them are not anywhere near as good as what you see on HN. So, if you have personal friction with the mods, good luck with that!

The internet is this awesome opportunity to rub elbows with people around the world. Then the admin structure very often gets you stuck in "I shot the sheriff" * hell, where no matter what you fucking do, some asshole who doesn't like you and is in charge rides your goddamn case and deletes your shit for bs reasons and so on.

I don't know how to solve this problem. Most forums don't seem to be able to get it right.

* This is an old song where the plot is that the sheriff was making his life unbearable and there was no other way out, so he finally shoots him.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#428
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is certainly true for github as well.

Git is decentralized so being dependent on a central repo is the users' fault not the organization. But that said, I don't put anything on Github if I can avoid it. Disgusting organization with awful management.

There is a lot of vendor lock in for git these days, everything from CI integration to git clients hard coded for github. We spent most of the 90's and 00's breaking vendor lock in and then forgot it was a thing.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#429

Mailing lists really are preferable for a number of reasons but unfortunately Google Groups or worse, mailman is the interface, and they're both pretty bad.

"Mailing lists really are preferable for a number of reasons but unfortunately Google Groups or worse, mailman is the interface, and they're both pretty bad."

How in the world would you improve mailman ?

Not enough js for you ? Not enough on-hover events ? Too much plain text and obvious links ?

Please, please - to everyone reading this today and into the future - do not fix mailman. Go "fix" something else.

Re: Why Slack is inappropriate for open source communications

#430
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Emojis Unless you have a mobile keyboard you'll have to search for emojis yourself and paste them. Emoji's will always be an after thought unlike in Matrix[1] and riot[2]. >>Search You're right, it has nothing to do with the protocol. It was never about if it was possible or not. I'm talking about if it is available right now. Try riot.im and then please show a mainstream IRC client with has the same search feature…

>Unless you have a mobile keyboard you'll have to search for emojis yourself and paste them. Emoji's will always be an after thought unlike in Matrix[1] and riot[2]. What a load of crap. Emojis are simply sequences of Unicode code points . IRC supports UTF-8. A client with a button that brings up a big list of emoji is trivial to build. >You're right, it has nothing to do with the protocol. It was never about if it w…

> trivial to build

The point was it isn't built, where as there's auto completion support for emojis which wouldn't even need that "trivial" software. That's in the matrix's sdk. If it's so trivial, please, build for the IRC community. I use hexchat on my desktop and weechat on the server. Would you mind building me one if it is trivial?

> That's irrelevant. You claimed that the simplicity of the IRC protocol was something unobtainable with those features. That's what I am disputing.

Fine, I concede. But I'm surprised you're still going for this. I tried out a bunch of different IRC applications and couldn't find search in any. Oh well.

> It's precisely about whether it's possible. You claimed that simple protocols for chat were not compatible with the features you listed.

My argument was about the ecosystem and the applications and the contributors worked on those applications. You can extend any protocol to worked with other servers and your own extensions to work with your own version of the server code.

If IRC protocol is so amazing, then do you have a reason why it is constantly changed? I've seen it adopted to XMPP, Jabber and others. No sane person today will use the default IRC protocol in an application they intend to keep proprietary.

Discussing what's possible is a waste of time because any feature can be built given time and effort. The point is how easy and how maintainable/stable. More importantly, is it available now?

>I agree that IRC was never intended to be run in a browser and doesn't run in a browser well. But that is irrelevant.

I don't understand your logic. Why isn't something running well in a browser irrelevant? Do you expect everyone to use the command line or native applications all the time?

> "We should all use slack because simple standardised protocols can't do X, Y and Z" is FUD.

Huh. Well I wonder why there are sizable OSS communities moving to Slack. What's your take on this?

> So I don't think that IRC is being held back by an inability to implement things

Then why aren't we seeing the features that are in Slack in any IRC client? It's obvious people want the features in slack. Session persistence is an important feature for people in most OSS projects I've seen using slack.

> What are you talking about? I haven't said anything of the sort.

Oh come on. Your response to many of my points was basically 'it's possible', but not about if it is available today. If I were a non-technical user, what should I do if I want those features? I would just move to slack if there's nothing better than IRC out there.

>Very, very few OSS projects have moved to slack

It's true that many OSS projects didn't move to slack, but that's just because of inertia. Maybe we just look at different OSS projects, but many of what I see use slack, and the numbers aren't going down. Slack itself talked about how there are lots of OSS projects choosing slack and it's straining them .

Here's an article about OSS usage of slack[1]. Note how OSS projects are trying to mimic slack, not IRC. There's a reason for that, and you're conveniently ignoring that. Here's a discussion where you can see many people talking about the shortcomings of slack and why how IRC is failing them.[2]

To name a couple large OSS projects which moved to slack Wordpress - https://make.wordpress.org/chat/

Kubernetes - https://kubernetes.io/community/

There are bunch which I personally use, like Monero and Golem project. The problem is that the total number is rapidly increasing.

>a protocol that has been successful for a long time, is open, is inherently distributed and which there are many clients on many platforms for, while going 'look at how awesome [thing nobody uses] is!!'

No one is arguing about it's openness or success in the past. Just that it's time to move on.

>Also the majority of IRC users aren't using freenode and the use of IRC by OSS is a tiny portion of the total use of IRC.

IRC is in use for a very, very long time. No doubt. But you must be joking if you compare that you use of slack. There are so many people and companies (who could've used IRC by hosting it themselves) that it eclipses the use of IRC.

[1]:https://www.wired.com/2016/03/open-source-devs-racing-build-... [2]:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10486541

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