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Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

theatlantic.com

421–430 of 439 posts

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that depends on your sources. TheIntercept doesn't fit into that bracket to me. Bias? Maybe, but bias isn't a problem if you read a diverse set of sources. Bias isn't a problem, opinion isn't a problem; reading one source and complaining its 'fake news' because it's bias isn't the same as yours is.

I agree that there is still a spectrum of quality. And certain Journalists and publications can still establish a reputation for reliability and quality. But the problem is the business model. No one has been able to come up with a solution to make money on quality. Its all volume advertising. NYT is competing with BuzzFeed for eyeballs. Its a competition to come up with the most clever hook and target peoples emotio…

[deleted]

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#422

It think the problem is now too many people are on the internet. Back in the 90's, it was a great place to hang out. In the 2000's, you had fun sites with great user commentary like Fark, Digg, Slashdot, and Reddit. Now everybody and their kid has a cellphone with internet access. Your average person is an asshole, so that's reflected online because of how saturated it all is now.

This in spades . Usenet was tiny . Probably ~50k users, maybe 500k, back in the late 1980s / early 1990s. (Email discussion with Gene "Spaff" Spafford, one of the Usenet Cabal (TINC) members.) I remember Slashdot ... before there were userIDs. I ... had a pretty low-digit-count ID, and remember when the site hit 100k and 1 million users. Today, an online service with 5 million to 10 million active users is ... consid…

"One of my hobbies has been to look at how dynamics within various groups change with group size"

Do you have a link? I went to your ello page, and now I have 7 tabs open, lol. I saw "Conversation doesn't scale very well", but that was only a tiny conversation; unless I missed something.

"My suspicion is that ~50 - 500 users is probably a relatively good sweet point, though I'm not sure how that an be utilised to make scalable discussions possible"

Just a thought after reading a couple of your ello posts. I wonder is the sweet point is related to "The basis of trust should be local reputation by peers who actually know who you are and that you play fair." [1]. Meaning it might be beneficial to limit discussions to those that are considered experts by their peers? Yet, sometimes outside perspective can be beneficial. As mentioned in [2]. I guess what I'm saying is, are scalable discussions possible? They seem to branch off into many tangents. Just brainstorming here :)

1. https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/iex9l-hxfwop9kdyrvugvq

2. https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/lu30wakaoho3guaguxrasw

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#423
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Facebook actually have less trolling? I don't know how anyone could quantify it but subjectively there seems to be a lot. It's easy to create fake accounts, and some people just don't care.

Enough so that the retiring US Attorney for Chicago specifically called it out for the city's murder problem. https://archive.fo/203tP

Criminal street gang members threatening and dissing each other doesn't qualify as trolling. If we're calling that trolling now then the term has lost all meaning. And that retiring US Attorney didn't cite any evidence of one social media system being worse than the others.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#424

It think the problem is now too many people are on the internet. Back in the 90's, it was a great place to hang out. In the 2000's, you had fun sites with great user commentary like Fark, Digg, Slashdot, and Reddit. Now everybody and their kid has a cellphone with internet access. Your average person is an asshole, so that's reflected online because of how saturated it all is now.

I think what you said is true. I also think that it is further proof of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory[1].

[1] https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#425
The term troll is meaningless these days. The term is an umbrella for a number of different things, from traditional trolling, harassment and posting stuff other people disagree with.

With the rise of reddit and facebook, its possible to live in a bubble, an echo chamber and anything that takes you out of that bubble is considered trolling.

I remember in the late 90s everyone thought that the openness of the internet was going to tear down walls, as you got to expand your bubble. All its done is re-enforce the bubbles people live in.

I think this post outlines what is happening http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#426
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough so that the retiring US Attorney for Chicago specifically called it out for the city's murder problem. https://archive.fo/203tP

Criminal street gang members threatening and dissing each other doesn't qualify as trolling. If we're calling that trolling now then the term has lost all meaning. And that retiring US Attorney didn't cite any evidence of one social media system being worse than the others.

"Trolling: A person who posts inflammatory or otherwise unwanted material on an electronic forum, especially anonymously."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trolling

"Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll&defid=...

Provoking gangland warfare to the tune of http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-open-le...

There's been an absolute epidemic within this thread of people attempting to redefine trolling in such a way as to minimise either the problem or the source article. It's beyond stupid, beyond credible, and beyond sustaining any credibility of those doing it.

Ya trollin' me, bra?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#427
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those concepts are inherently fuzzy and related in messy ways." No, they're really not. The one has a strict legal definition and is enshrined in law, and the others don't and aren't. "But in actuality, de-platforming as practiced on college campuses often results in a group of people too intimidated to talk and too intimidated to attend, contrary to their desires. " And what about the people who have felt intimidat…

No, they're really not. The one has a strict legal definition and is enshrined in law, and the others don't and aren't. Sorry, but it is a historical fact that "strict legal definitions" are fuzzy, and the definition of a "right" changes with technology and cultural changes. If such changes didn't happen, then wiretapping wouldn't be illegal and it would still be illegal to overfly someone's farm in an airplane. Hate…

> Sorry, but it is a historical fact that "strict legal definitions" are fuzzy, and the definition of a "right" changes with technology and cultural changes.

I am not arguing for some wishy-washy hypothetical future that may or may not exist, I am arguing about the present. Currently the law enshrines your right to hold an opinion openly, just not in certain contexts, based on the opinion. It does not (as I have stated) enshrine your right to have that opinion heard or published, and so therefore does not cover de-platforming.

> De-platforming, as practiced, is used to silence anything certain people don't like.

Do you have a source for this? I've only ever heard of it used to remove speakers that discriminate against minorities (eg. Milo, Spencer, et al. ad nauseum), and, in the twitter case, to condone removing anti-semites (which clearly falls under hate speech), or to condone removing groups of posters recently created, that all spam certain individials to troll them by "arguing" with them (this actually falls under "harassment" legislation in some places. Incidentally this has happened personally, when I tweeted that I enjoy reporting anti-semites on twitter, seconds later my mentions were filled with a mixture of people and bots whom have never interacted with me before, all spewing hatred at me).

> If de-platforming were only focused against hate speech, there would be no debate, as hate speech is not protected speech.

This is an indirect tautology.

> Are you saying that all de-platforming is only targeted at hate speech? In that case, you are simply lying.

Perhaps providing an evidencial claim here would better serve your needs. So far you have not actually addressed any of my arguments, you have simply called it weak, stated that I am lying, and stated that I am wrong in a different world, with different laws. You then have the audacity to state that I am making a logical fallacy! You have yet to produce a firm, non-tautological argument, or produce any evidence for any of your claims. You also seem to have taken it upon yourself to ignore the main section of my argument. I will respond only when you do this, since engaging with someone who argues in an intellectualy dishonest manner is wasteful of my time.

> You do realize that you made a false assumption about my views here for weak probabalistic reasons, then proceeded to ascribe them to me?

You make, almost word for word, the same argument as the people I was referring to, so it seemed safe that you would share the same views, as well. I admit I could have been mistaken, however you have not addressed any of the (rather valid) points I made in that same section. As you bring up logical fallacies, it might be prudent for you to read this one: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This in spades . Usenet was tiny . Probably ~50k users, maybe 500k, back in the late 1980s / early 1990s. (Email discussion with Gene "Spaff" Spafford, one of the Usenet Cabal (TINC) members.) I remember Slashdot ... before there were userIDs. I ... had a pretty low-digit-count ID, and remember when the site hit 100k and 1 million users. Today, an online service with 5 million to 10 million active users is ... consid…

"One of my hobbies has been to look at how dynamics within various groups change with group size" Do you have a link? I went to your ello page, and now I have 7 tabs open, lol. I saw "Conversation doesn't scale very well", but that was only a tiny conversation; unless I missed something. "My suspicion is that ~50 - 500 users is probably a relatively good sweet point, though I'm not sure how that an be utilised to mak…

A lot of this is still ideas floating around my skull and various notes (electronic or paper), not fully organised.

Ello is, as I've just noted in a post there, very search-resistant, which is becoming a major pain-point. My post index (see my profile page there) is very sadly out of date, though it has a few items on it.

https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/dlz9c2z6x-tvkd7rxtxwpw

I'd put some thoughts together on Reddit and community and what seems to work, or not: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/20yhxc/reddit_...

In the spirit of Thomas Edison, a long list of things that don't work: https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1w73g4/on_comm...

You've found two of the better items I'd put together on trust and dialectic discussion at Ello.

Though not directly related to size, I've also suggested standardising topical "channels" of discussion: https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/ftpx7lwnfjtopygu5xrkhg

Somewhere amongst my writing is a suggestion for a tiered set of vaguely Dunbar's Number sized network clusters. Say, 50-150 people per group, themselves organised into clusters of perhaps 50 groups themselves. A small level of tiers gets you to current global population size (5-7 levels as I recall). If each group surfaces, say, 10 - 100 items per day of choice public content, and the filtering is applied upwards, then ... maybe there's a way to have both local and global discussion.

Topical interests might be overlays on that, based on net interest. A topic with a 1:50 interest level would draw from all 50 neighbouring clusters for its own base level. A topic with a 1:2500 interest would scale to two levels up -- this retains some level of "locality" whilst also allowing for broader discussion.

And branching out between clusters would be possible, but effectively with some additional cost -- UI/UX-imposed or other. Not large, but present.

There's an existing (or was) network that was organised somewhat on these terms, though I believe it's not done much. Building initial interest is difficult.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who simply cannot effectively defend themselves. They don't have the knowledge. They're visually disabled. They've got cognitive decline, for whatever reasons. And the scams and attacks keep coming. Generally not trolls, so much, though that can be a thing as well. I'm not completely against there being some wild corners of the Internet (though you might want to take a look at some of danah boyd's re…

Then you buffer them. You limit input and output to trusted family, friends and support staff.

Try that some time and tell me how it goes.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact same thing could be said about the people celebrating the DNC and Hillary's race to the White house on reddit. An obviously flawed actor with few redeeming qualities, yet still held in high regard in the minds of people on r/politics. The only difference I see on the left side of the divide is lack of humour (which tends to invite trolling).

I don't want to get into a political argument, especially with someone who thinks Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are even remotely comparable. And I say that as someone with a deep dislike of Hillary. Interesting that you think the left side lacks humor. Last time I checked, all parody shows on TV were liberal. What is the right-wing equivalent of SNL?

> What is the right-wing equivalent of SNL?

Bullied off the air long ago. Remember people tried to get people like Thiel fired from FB for daring to donate campaign funds to a mainstream candidate.

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