Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 689 posts

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#421

Post by m-j-fox »

ghaff wrote: post #370
m-j-fox wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC supposedly fixed some of their problems in the 50s if you believe Jane Jacobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am... She teaches that the key to getting rid of traffic is getting rid of roads. Not everyone buys this theory, but in LA's case, why not try dynamiting the freeways and let's just see if things get better? It's not like they can get any worse.

Yeah, but Manhattan traffic hasn't actually improved has it? The volume wasn't allowed to grow indefinitely but that's a different matter.

The account in the book says traffic improved in the neighborhood where they removed the roads. It was a small-scale experiment. Subsequently NYC built a bunch more roads and traffic got worse. True believers point to a cause-and-effect relationship, but cities are complicated so it's hard to be sure.

The ideal plan for Jacobs might be Amsterdam. No cars, no traffic. It's so simple.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#422

Post by mturmon »

kkitay wrote: post #145
bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

There's a middle ground between buses and rail: building defacto rail lines by transforming far-left lanes and middle dividers into dedicated bus tracks and semipermanent bus stations. Urbanized (Gary Hustwit, 2011) highlights the TransMilenio bus system, which serves the city of Bogota. It specifically covers elevating the experience and status of taking the bus by adopting positive aspects of rail systems: covered…

LA already has some BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) lines like you describe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Metro_Busway

These systems operate mostly in dedicated right-of-way. There are more planned. I think they have been quite successful, for the reasons you describe.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#423

Post by wa2flq »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #392
Osiris wrote: post #307

This is just a band-aid. Same with adding buses, lanes, trains, etc. When something goes wrong in software we usually try to resolve it by finding a root cause. There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. Why? ... Etc. The solutions to the root causes, whatever they are, are, unfortunately, a lot more complex and expensive th…

> Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. No! The defining feature of the LA megapolis is that the offices and workplaces are not all in one central place. Just within LA County, there are major business districts in Hollywood, Santa Monica, Culver City, Burbank, Pasadena, Warner Center, Playa Vista, downtown, Westwood, Century City, … it goes on and on. As Human Transit says, Los Angeles is a "vast c…

There is significant reverse commute and congestion from Chicago into the suburbs The travel times are typically longer than the conventional flow.

Suburb to Suburb mass transit is bus but challenging for long transits. There are only two major ring type highways. Attempts to get a suburban ring "STAR" train or outer Chicago "Circle" Loop line never get past the study stage.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#424

Post by touchofevil »

ryandrake wrote: post #130
touchofevil wrote: post #71

The traffic in LA is soul crushing. I just finished a job where I commuted about 18 miles each way and the drive would take 50 minutes each way. That might not sound unreasonable, but nearly the entire commute was freeway driving, which should have been much faster. I don't know if tolls are the answer, but it's probably worth a try. Also massively expanding the metro system would be fine with me. LA needs to try wha…

> The traffic in LA is soul crushing. I just finished a job where I commuted about 18 miles each way and the drive would take 50 minutes each way. Amateur! :-) My Bay Area commute is ~50 miles and takes around 2-2.5 hours each way, all freeway. If tolls ended up being a significant cost of living expense, it would actually have the effect of making me move even farther away to an area I can afford taking the extra co…

You poor soul...a 2+ hour commute each way is just mind-blowing. I worked with some people who did those kind of commutes and I don't know how they did it (especially because we were doing minimum 10 hour days). I would spend or sacrifice pretty much any amount of money not to do a 2+ hour commute.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#425

Post by Gibbon1 »

tn13 wrote: post #382
Osiris wrote: post #307

This is just a band-aid. Same with adding buses, lanes, trains, etc. When something goes wrong in software we usually try to resolve it by finding a root cause. There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. Why? ... Etc. The solutions to the root causes, whatever they are, are, unfortunately, a lot more complex and expensive th…

> Increase the cost of vehicle registration or gas taxes to encourage workers to prefer jobs closer to their home. Or perhaps impose such high state taxes/ local body taxes that the people simply leave the town, state or even better the country! Just kidding. This is a very heavy handed solution that hurts a lot of people and especially poor, minorities and vulnerable groups. Roads, Vehicles and Gas has far too many…

A toll is a bad solution. You can't just slap a toll on drivers and expect the free market to provide them with an alternative. No do that and they'll hate you and start doing malign things at the ballot box.

The solution is increasing the subsidies for public and mass transit. Problem with lack of transit in California can be summarized by three names; Governor Deukmejian, Governor Wilson, and Governor Schwarzenegger. They represent a 28 year period of under investment in public transportation.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#426

Post by Osiris »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #392
Osiris wrote: post #307

This is just a band-aid. Same with adding buses, lanes, trains, etc. When something goes wrong in software we usually try to resolve it by finding a root cause. There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. Why? ... Etc. The solutions to the root causes, whatever they are, are, unfortunately, a lot more complex and expensive th…

> Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. No! The defining feature of the LA megapolis is that the offices and workplaces are not all in one central place. Just within LA County, there are major business districts in Hollywood, Santa Monica, Culver City, Burbank, Pasadena, Warner Center, Playa Vista, downtown, Westwood, Century City, … it goes on and on. As Human Transit says, Los Angeles is a "vast c…

That was just an example of questions to think about what is the root cause. Obviously you have a better handle on at least part of the root cause(s).

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#427

Post by reillyse »

LA doesn't have a traffic problem. People just have overly high expectations.

As someone who has also lived and commuted in lots of cities around the world, LA just doesn't have that much of a problem.

What other major city in the world would you expect to be able to drive 15 miles through the centre at rush hour and get to your destination in under an hour (I'm using as reference Downtown LA to Santa Monica at 9am, typically takes 35 to 1h 5min according to google maps). Good luck in London, Paris, NYC or Tokyo never mind Delhi or Beijing.

The line made famous by clueless that everywhere in LA takes 20 minutes is completely true, with the caveat being, so long as you don't drive during traffic. This reality is what people are comparing their rush hour commute to, they know that if they are lucky enough to avoid traffic they will get there in 20 minutes, but when they hit bad traffic it takes an hour. (Obviously I'm ignoring stuck on the 405 for 5 hour nightmare stories here, I'm just talking about day to day driving.)

LA is a victim of having too good a car infrastructure, it allows people to make ridiculous commuting decisions and get away with it the majority of the time. Adding more traffic infrastructure just makes the problem worse. People can drive from further away and save money on their housing and they will. They'll also work in places that are further away, the problem is as much about where businesses are located as it is about where people live.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#428

Post by Aloha »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #425
tn13 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Increase the cost of vehicle registration or gas taxes to encourage workers to prefer jobs closer to their home. Or perhaps impose such high state taxes/ local body taxes that the people simply leave the town, state or even better the country! Just kidding. This is a very heavy handed solution that hurts a lot of people and especially poor, minorities and vulnerable groups. Roads, Vehicles and Gas has far too many…

A toll is a bad solution. You can't just slap a toll on drivers and expect the free market to provide them with an alternative. No do that and they'll hate you and start doing malign things at the ballot box. The solution is increasing the subsidies for public and mass transit. Problem with lack of transit in California can be summarized by three names; Governor Deukmejian, Governor Wilson, and Governor Schwarzenegge…

>They represent a 28 year period of under investment in public transportation

They represent a 28 year period of under investment in all transportation infrastructure, not just public transit.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#429

Post by Osiris »

wa2flq wrote: post #423
tomjakubowski wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. No! The defining feature of the LA megapolis is that the offices and workplaces are not all in one central place. Just within LA County, there are major business districts in Hollywood, Santa Monica, Culver City, Burbank, Pasadena, Warner Center, Playa Vista, downtown, Westwood, Century City, … it goes on and on. As Human Transit says, Los Angeles is a "vast c…

There is significant reverse commute and congestion from Chicago into the suburbs The travel times are typically longer than the conventional flow. Suburb to Suburb mass transit is bus but challenging for long transits. There are only two major ring type highways. Attempts to get a suburban ring "STAR" train or outer Chicago "Circle" Loop line never get past the study stage.

Denver has this also. My drive into the city is about 40 minutes. The drive home is about 1hr 20min.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#430

Post by Tiktaalik »

ghaff wrote: post #370
m-j-fox wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC supposedly fixed some of their problems in the 50s if you believe Jane Jacobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am... She teaches that the key to getting rid of traffic is getting rid of roads. Not everyone buys this theory, but in LA's case, why not try dynamiting the freeways and let's just see if things get better? It's not like they can get any worse.

Yeah, but Manhattan traffic hasn't actually improved has it? The volume wasn't allowed to grow indefinitely but that's a different matter.

Traffic may not have improved, but that's measuring the wrong thing. What is important is whether people and goods are moving effectively regardless of the transportation mode.
Post reply on HN