How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations • Hacker News Board

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#421

Post by balabaster » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #411

balabaster wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an every day occurrence in London unfortunately. People park on sidewalks, cars parked down both sides of narrow streets with no room for cars to pass in opposite directions, you have to pull into gaps between parked cars to allow head on traffic to pass. In some places there you only have inches on either wing mirror to even pass through. If you've never been to London, you can't begin to appreciate the width o…

I visited Ireland last year as a Wisconsinite..... being driven around the Northern Irish countryside was terrifying. Also everyone parks on the sidewalk, and its completely impractical to own a truck because the roads are about half the size of American roads..

As an American in London, or in fact pretty much any town or city in England, I'd wager you'd feel much the same way.

A little secret though, we already know you guys feel this way, and we take that into consideration when we drive you... we add a little extra excitement to the drive, you know, because we know you guys are addicted to drama :D

We know you're already uncomfortable because you feel like you're on the wrong side of the car and on the wrong side of the road, exposed and white knuckling it, so we just like to send you home with a little something to remember us by... that time you took your life in your own hands by getting in the car with a crazy Brit and lived to tell the tale ;)

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#422

Post by monocasa » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

dri_ft wrote: post #319

m_mueller wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure it has genetic components, but the question for me is rather whether those components differ between peoples. I'd assume that evolutionary pressure selected quite heavily for people who can be trusted to cooperate.

But there are also obvious evolutionary pressures towards self-interest, even when it means breaking promises/trustworthiness. (Remember, selection happens at the level of individuals, not of whole groups and societies!) The balance between the two pressures could be different in different environments. In other words, it's quite possible that one environment could select more for trustworthiness, another more for un…

Not being a dick and working together without everyone constantly on edge that everyone else is going to screw them the first chance they get is a totally valid strategy, even from a self-interest standpoint.

Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4341

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#423

Post by mseebach » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

Kluny wrote: post #114

FrancoDiaz wrote: post #10

I have a 4 year old, in my mid 40s, and think about this a lot for some reason. In the 70s during the summer, when I was around 7, we would wake up, eat breakfast, go out and about wherever we wanted, come back for lunch, out again, come back for dinner, and then out again past dark to play flashlight tag. I think I would be charged with child endangerment these days if my kid (3 years in the future) was doing stuff…

Media is part of it, but the other part is this, taken from the first comment on the linked article: "I can’t help but notice how many freeways and roads are between Sheffield and Rother Valley. We can’t blame parents alone for the loss of childhood freedom. Since 1919 We have purposely designed our cities to maximize vehicle throughput and require car ownership and the result is an environment that is lethal for 8 y…

Traffic is definitely a big, unsolved problem in todays cities -- but in this context, it doesn't really fit into the causal chain: People report roaming about freely as kids in the 70s and 80s (that would include myself), several decades into the golden age of cars everywhere. Obviously individual areas can change, but the world at large today isn't significantly more dangerous for traffic reasons than it was 40 years ago.

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#424

Post by brewdad » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:37 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #415

de_Selby wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist it happens all the time, it goes something like this: 1) A car comes within centimeters of side swiping me and knocking me down. They don't even notice I'm there. 2) They stop at the next traffic light, I tap on the window to tell them to be more careful. 3) They get angry at me . 4) Other drivers see this interaction and soon you see articles in newspapers complaining about "militant cyclists"

I mean, around me the made a law that you can't be within 3 feet of a cyclist. After that passed there was a group of cyclists going around with yardsticks trying to smack cars while riding. Pretending that there aren't extremely toxic cyclists doesn't help the problem.

I LOVE this idea. Don't want your precious car scratched, then give 3 feet. My street has no sidewalks and cars constantly exceeding the 25mph limit. I'm pretty sure I could damage some vehicles doing nothing more than holding my house keys sideways in my hands as I walk/run. Drivers truly don't care about anything outside their windshield.

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#425

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #53

NamTaf wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, in a recent brief visit to Switzerland I stayed with some friends in a small village near Zug and saw examples of this sort of attitude throughout more aspects of life than just child-raising. For example, many farmers were leaving produce out with price tags on and relying on an honour system for payment. Some did a 'pay what you want' system for their produce and just relied on people to do the right th…

Forget farms, this is even how the supermarket produce section works in Switzerland. You pick your stuff, you weigh it yourself, you choose the right tag (without anyone looking over your shoulder) and then you go to a (nowadays potentially automated) cashier. Heck, it's how the tax system works as well. Government has no way of knowing how much is actually on your bank account, well at least not officially (gov was…

well, for supermarket this is common all around europe for fruit&veggies, east, west, everywhere. probably cheaper than hiring extra person to mark everything correctly.

all super/hypermarkets in france are same, shopping there every weekend.

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#426

Post by bluejekyll » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

ciaranm wrote: post #321

nvarsj wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true in London, unfortunately. Cars destroy the city - both by polluting it, and making walking and biking dangerous. Boris Johnson's goal as mayor was to optimise traffic flow through London, which just encouraged more cars. Going to a city like Cambridge where the center is shut down to cars is quite eye opening - lots of kids and people walking and biking. In London it's just a sea of cars driving and…

I make a point of banging on any vehicle that's nearly hit someone and not noticed/acknowledged it - regardless of whether it was me they nearly hit or not. People get mad (especially people driving vans/small trucks), but it's disgraceful that people are driving multi-tonne vehicles and are completely oblivious to their surroundings. I'm glad your daughter is ok.

I used to do this all the time as well, and then I started noticing that it only increased the rage that I felt and also the rage in the other drivers. It finally came to a head when a car tried to run me down between multiple lights.

My new form of riding in the city is to be 100% defensive all the time, but not in a give up my rights as a cyclist way. I assume cars will do dumb things (because they always do) so I avoid their blind spots, never pass on the right, alsways take the entire lane so that a car can not pass you if it's not safe (only do this in the city), when traffic is slow assume cars will jump quickly around in lanes etc.

Many people get angry and defensive when you yell at or reprimand them. The goal is to try and inform them of their poor driving without increasing anger on both sides. Now I do this with a look, and no anger, and people tend to respond to that apologetically.

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#427

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #324

m_mueller wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a chicken-and-egg problem? IMO if a society treats people like responsible adults they'll rise up to the task. The question is of course how to transition there. I can't say to have any recipes, but I'm reasonably sure that taking away civic rights is counterproductive. Maybe try to get one electable political party that makes it their thing to protect and even expand citizen's rights and allow for more se…

> IMO if a society treats people like responsible adults they'll rise up to the task. Like passing anti-minaret laws? Societies and culture are more complex than you make it sound.

if there would be public vote about this in all european countries, most if not all would ban it. that's the current attitude unfortunately. swiss are just the most free nation to decide these things themselves

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#428

Post by mseebach » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

Groxx wrote: post #262

jackmott wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

more cars bigger cars faster cars cars in a hurry because they live 1 hour from work and hate life

Also more soundproof cars. You can't hear kids playing two feet away in modern vehicles if the windows are up.

You also can't hear kids playing two feet away in 40 year old cars, windows or not, because they are too noisy. And if you rely on hearing for detecting kids, especially two feet away, you're going to have a bad time, even with the windows down.

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#429

Post by baursak » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #220

erikpukinskis wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have purposely designed our cities to maximize vehicle throughput and require car ownership This is just one specific example of the broader phenomenon, which is corporations seek to remove all of our abilities to take care of ourselves and our communities, so that they may resell those things to us as products. Requiring cars to move around is just the surface. We go to coffee shops and restaurants to see our f…

Corporations don't force it on you. People voluntarily use that. Corporations provide those things because people want them.

And sometimes they remove competing things that people want so that the only thing available is what corporations have to offer.

Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations

#430

Post by neap24 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #185

noonespecial wrote: post #122

I was thinking about this the other day. Ironically this is the safest time in all of history to let kids do this. Crime is historically very low and our kids want to carry around magical devices that lets us know where they are at all times and contact them instantly. This should be a golden age, yet we've turned it into jail. What gives everyone? Edit: And by "what gives" I mean literally, I live in the US and have…

Crime is not the problem, traffic is. I grew up in a blind alley, and the whole town was really low in traffic. I started cruising around with my bike together with the neighbors at age 7, and we met a car every 10 minutes, tops. They slowed down to a stop, mostly, when they saw us. Fast forward, we are living in a city of 30k citizens now, though on the outskirts; there is a major road about 200m away, and although…

Traffic doesn't have to be a problem. My city has significant sidewalk infrastructure. Also, the right way to do this is to start off by taking long walks as a family and training kids to cross the street properly and be vigilant of their surroundings. My 3 year old already has a natural fear of large, fast-moving vehicles.