U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#421

Post by sheepmullet » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 12:46 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #337

illumin8 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your insightful comment - I wish people like you would testify in front of congress on the abuses of the H1B process that are clearly widespread. It's depressing to think about the stress and anxiety this might cause someone who is literally facing deportation if he doesn't "suck it up" and keep working at a sweat shop for the same salary they were hired at 5+ years ago.

I'm on an H-1B, and the thing that infuriates me about the dialogue on this is that they are effectively trying to ban skilled immigration, and exclude people like me from coming. If you don't qualify for the family-based or refugee route, employment-based immigration is the only viable pathway. The amount of hate I see piled on people trying to come here via the employment-based immigration seems insane to me. These…

I mean when it comes down to it choosing a neurosurgeon over an entry level software developer makes a lot of sense.

What is wrong with wanting to prioritise people who have lots of experience and skill?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#422

Post by dcow » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:13 PM UTC

pbh101 wrote: post #242

belorn wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of many situation outside of employee distributions where quota would be discriminatory and wrong, so maybe a better question is what make hiring process so unique? To give a few examples where quota would not work, lets talk about lotto winner. Why should winners not be on a quota so that winners are proportional to the population demographics? How is it fair that winner demographics don't match the popu…

Your examples are interesting: Lottos: are known to give each ticket a fair chance based on a published set of rules. I think if that existed for hiring then many of the issues we see here would be gone. Unfortunately for many jobs it is difficult to give a test which is a fair sole determiner of suitability for work. And if I understand correctly also illegal in some jurisdictions, more or less because it can be abu…

While each ticket has a fair chance there isn't a 1:1 relationship between tickets and people. I think what's being asked is whether we should correct the outcomes of lotteries in response to opportunity inequality: force a 1:1 relationship.

While road funding may be distributed based on usage data after the fact or density projection before construction, should we throttle traffic flow so that roads wear evenly?

But should a murderer go free? And what of the scenarios where a given minority group collectively _does_ commit more crimes? It may in fact be nurture not nature (although it doesn't really matter) that yields such an outcome yet we would ignore such behavior because it feels overbearing to subject the group to "more" scrutiny relative to other groups that requires less.

I think the point is that it is confusing to entertain such diversity policy when applied outside of a socially hot topic such as the tech labor market. But also a challenge to find a scenario where equality of outcome is objectively desirable and draw parallels.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#423

Post by sangnoir » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:16 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #384

sangnoir wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are suggesting, but won't say explicitly is that the black kid who wants to be a CRUD developer won't be good at it; that's a rubbish argument. The NBA is much smaller than entire industries: there are more CEOs than NBA players.

That's almost what he's saying, but the devil is in the details. He's saying that within the Black community, there are fewer people who (for whatever reason) have the skills necessary to be a CRUD developer. Reasons may include, but are not limited to: - poverty and access to education - cultural factors pertaining to the value of higher education - cultural factors pertaining to the types of jobs that are valued (e…

So which of the reasons did you cite is responsible for their lack of success with the NBA?

Whether it was intended or not, OP was dog-whistling the genetics argument, which I do not buy.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#424

Post by dlss » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:18 PM UTC

mjevans wrote: post #333

dlss wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that `P(loan | race=1, black_zip) = P(loan | race=2, black_zip) = 0` does indeed satisfy the condition, I think the kind of discrimination it creates is in some sense out of scope. This is because if P(loan | black_zip) is profitable > 0, any bank primarily motivated by profit will approve such loans. [this is the statement I believe you meant] If P(loan | black_zip) isn't profitable > 0 after correctin…

Of course if all banks do that, how is society to deal with this pit/failed neighborhood?

Through products and services not offered by banks?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#425

Post by usrusr » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:22 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #141

lucisferre wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying that I agree with quotas as a solution to problems like discriminatory biases in hiring, but how is a quota system "discriminatory"? What race, sex or age group is discriminated against by a requirement that appropriate proportions of those demographics make up the companies employees? (Heck in most cases quotas are simply a low bar, they are not even proportional to the population demographics.) I can und…

"We can't hire any more black people, we have too many as is, if your white friend was to apply we would hire him in a heartbeat we have trouble getting enough of those" Seems pretty discriminatory to me.

Or worse yet: "Sorry, a group of our employees recently went back to Mexico to start their own business there, we can only hire Hispanic for the foreseeable future."

Bonus question: should the HR department be allowed to ask for ethnicity ahead of time or would noneligible applicants have to sacrifice precious time in futile interviews?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#426

Post by dlss » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:26 PM UTC

inimino wrote: post #355

dlss wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by "reality"? The thing scientists (especially physicists) are trying to model.

You're not the person I was asking, and I didn't ask for a definition. In case you missed my point, we aren't talking about physics here, but about society, which is a reality we create . Appealing to "reality" in a discussion about bias amounts to throwing up your hands and dismissing the problem as just "the way things are". It's like if you described a complicated social problem you've observed and I shrugged and…

> Appealing to "reality" in a discussion about bias amounts to throwing up your hands and dismissing the problem as just "the way things are".

Yes, that was how I read GGP's comment. I think you are overstating the degree of control that we have over society.

For example, I have often heard the case that society influences young women into roles that eventually prevent them from becoming engineers. Gendered children's toys are often used as an example of this. However, gendered toy preference exists before socialization has occurred (it has been demonstrated in 3-8 month old infants[1]). The same gendered toy preference that exists in humans has also been demonstrated in vervet monkeys[2] and rhesus monkeys[3].

[1] http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-008-9430-1

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2643016/

[3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

With those references now provided, I think it's safe to say gendered toy preference in humans is much bigger than simply a question of which toys we encourage children to buy -- there seems to be a considerable amount of genetics involved.

Hopefully now you are understanding what I meant when I defined reality for you. As I said I believe this is also what GGP was referring to.

So with that background out of the way:

> In case you missed my point, we aren't talking about physics here, but about society, which is a reality we create.

> It's like if you described a complicated social problem you've observed and I shrugged and said "physics, eh?".

A. How do you know it's a problem with the "reality we create" and not a problem with the reality we are stuck with? (Again, this is how I read GGP)

B. If we can trace the problem to something akin to male vervet monkeys preferring to play with Tonka trucks... what are we to do about it beyond ensuring that P(loan | race=1) = P(loan | race=2)?

I ask B because the idea of forcing my life choices onto someone else makes me feel ill. It reminds me of being forced to join the basketball team in high school, which I hated (though others seemed to love). The sick feeling compounds when I consider doing it purely on the basis of their race or gender in contexts where their race or gender is causal... and that's usually the course of action people on your side of this discussion recommend.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#427

Post by exabrial » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:34 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #178

exabrial wrote: post #90

The real solution to the problem is everyone needs to share their income level with their co-workers as well as their performance reports. And don't be afraid to leave!

"Why does Brian earn more than I do?" - "He is better than you, simple as that". I think happiness levels in companies would definitely skyrocket... Wonder what the experience in Sweden is, though. How often do people query their Coworkers salaries there?

To which the proper response is: "We favor Brian because he's on-time, he's thorough, he communicates well, he's responsible, and he doesn't blame others. We can set him up to mentor you if you'd like, and here's how we'll measure your growth"

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#428

Post by johnward » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #420

stbtrax wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do questions of race and ethnicity come up in an interview? It's illegal to ask that and they can be sued so usually they're very careful to not touch the subject.

One white guy told me his buddies used the word "nigger," and why was this such a big deal? Another person started off saying "I can't ask you anything illegal, so let me ask you this," took a long pause, which was then followed up by a programming puzzle about monkeys. None of these questions were flat out illegal to ask, but from other software engineering interviews I've been in they're certainly not standard ques…

This happened at an interview? I find this highly unlikely. Maybe I'm just in my own bubble but I just can't imagine this scenario.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#429

Post by ones_and_zeros » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

hibikir wrote: post #126

pslam wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the part where the employer is required to: - Post representative salary data, including the last few (5?) hires to this position. - Publish the job position locally, so it can be filled by local workers preferentially, and then only by H1B if unfilled. - Ensure the worker is initially paid a salary similar to other existing hires in that position. I don't understand how people make the leap that H1B i…

The prevailing wage comes from a chart: you don't just do research or come up with it. Figuring out which prevailing wage to use among the existing job descriptions is already a matter of judgement, and you can just aim for the low one. Publishing the position locally is easily skirted: It's not published in places that people look at, it's not written in a way that makes it sound appealing, and often has some nonsen…

> The prevailing wage comes from a chart: you don't just do research or come up with it.

Interestingly, companies can provide their own wage surveys in order to justify the salary on an LCA. They aren't required to use the DoL wage data. [0]

"For the H-1B, H-1B1, and E-3 programs, employers have the option of using one of three wage sources to obtain the prevailing wage: (1) requesting a prevailing wage from the NPWC; (2) using a survey conducted by an independent authoritative source; or (3) using another legitimate source of information."

Larger companies are using #3. Since it is so vague and there isn't any oversight within the program they are able to manipulate the survey to provide results to their benefit while still claiming "We pay the prevailing wage! (according to our shady wage survey)"

[0] https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pwscreens.cfm

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#430

Post by dawnbreez » Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #268

ninkendo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…

Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology skills. Yet I've been to several interviews where questions about race/ethnicity were brought up (and I failed to get offers from those companies that ask such questions). I can only imagine what it's like being a woman going for these positions. My point, a lot…

Now, having done a few job applications myself: there is apparently a tax break or something for hiring a person of color, because race is always included in the job application, and always under the same header as questions for, say, disabled or veteran status.

However, asking in the interviews is unheard of, at least in shudder retail. And while outright denyig someone for their race isn't as common as you might think, people do instinctively like people who look like them, and they also have this bad habit of not questioning it when they like something...