U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#421

Post by formula1 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #419

formula1 wrote: post #416

Im glad I got someone with the shock value. Its clear you have a very unique perspective that I appreciate you sharing. Female in lower income bracket - I believe this. I think this is a rather heartbreaking reality so I am a ok not going into this. What I do know is that Ive met a few peoples whos moms work 16 hour days as much as possible. - chronically ill - the college educated are competing with the chronically…

Im all for helping those that cant help themselves. Yeah, no. This is incredibly insulting. I am not incapable of helping myself. I am working damn hard every single day to resolve my problems in the face of a hugely uphill battle that is compounded by sexism, housing designed solely for the rich and a whole bunch of other entrenched barriers to ordinary people making their lives work. You may be able to pretend that…

I sense alot of frustration and I hope this is cathartic for you.

Your not entirely wrong that I dont understand the homeless problem. Would you going in depth? I can respond but I get the impression you have alot to get off your chest.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#422

Post by roel_v » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #221

roel_v wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is no collateral for education.

The collateral is a claim on future earnings, isn't it? In the UK, the student loans company gets back 9% of your salary post graduation and you cannot legally opt out until the loan is repaid provided you earn over a minimum threshold.

You can't squeeze blood from a rock. Sure, you can say 'hey let's garnish this guy's McD wages for the next 25 years' - but the collection costs are almost as much as you can get your hands on. Just not worth it. Well, only at very high interest rates, so that the good ones make up for the bad ones.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#423

Post by Mz » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

formula1 wrote: post #421

Mz wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im all for helping those that cant help themselves. Yeah, no. This is incredibly insulting. I am not incapable of helping myself. I am working damn hard every single day to resolve my problems in the face of a hugely uphill battle that is compounded by sexism, housing designed solely for the rich and a whole bunch of other entrenched barriers to ordinary people making their lives work. You may be able to pretend that…

I sense alot of frustration and I hope this is cathartic for you. Your not entirely wrong that I dont understand the homeless problem. Would you going in depth? I can respond but I get the impression you have alot to get off your chest.

Don't hang your crap on me. I do not have a lot to get off my chest. I know a lot about the subject and you are making incredibly offensive, ill informed remarks.

If you want to know some of what I have already said about the topic, you can check out http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ or http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/. I am the author of both of them.

And I have work to do today. It isn't like you are going to fatten my wallet, so I don't have more time to put up with your incredibly insulting, prejudiced assumptions about me in order to try to further enlighten you.

Also, poor people do not need catharsis. They need solutions. So don't go pretending you care about me by wishing me catharsis. Any big feels I have are rooted in actual problems, not in some inability to express my feelings.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#424

Post by roel_v » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 10:59 PM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #385

roel_v wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is no collateral for education.

I'm not suggesting collateralized student loans, I agree that's difficult without a durable good. I'm suggesting a similar risk-based approach for determining the size of the loan. This would cut down on the number of people who have $200k in student loans and a MFA which generates no income. The difficulty of getting loans for degrees which are less likely to be able to generate significant income might even lead to…

Risk for loans is low(er) for material assets (because they can be repo'd), which is why interest on loans for them is so cheap. Education loans are priced 'correctly' by the market (i.e., very expensively), the 'problem' is that people consider them different from material goods because they're the best/only way for social advancement for many/most people (which I don't disagree with, I'm not making some sort of moral statement here, just explaining the mechanics.) So then 'they' (as in, some amorphous group of voters and politicians) want the government to step in, which creates disincentives all around, yadda yadda yadda and then we find ourselves in the situation we're in now.

So, to come back to your question, why don't we treat education loans the same as other loans - because 'society' doesn't think they're the same, for moral/equality/social mobility reasons. It's really as simple as that.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#425

Post by tptacek » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:08 PM UTC

formula1 wrote: post #421

Mz wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im all for helping those that cant help themselves. Yeah, no. This is incredibly insulting. I am not incapable of helping myself. I am working damn hard every single day to resolve my problems in the face of a hugely uphill battle that is compounded by sexism, housing designed solely for the rich and a whole bunch of other entrenched barriers to ordinary people making their lives work. You may be able to pretend that…

I sense alot of frustration and I hope this is cathartic for you. Your not entirely wrong that I dont understand the homeless problem. Would you going in depth? I can respond but I get the impression you have alot to get off your chest.

You tried the same rhetorical tactic with me. It's unproductive. You're no better at sensing the emotional state of other commenters than anyone else is --- which is to say you're unable to do it with any accuracy, and should avoid it.

What you're doing here is really just a prolix way of saying "lol umad bro". Stop.

Instead of trying to read other people's minds, could you put a little more effort into making a coherent argument? Because I simply can't follow what you're trying to say. (If someone else wants to take a stab at explaining, I'd be happy for the explainer).

If you'll recall, this subthread started out with me being similarly mystified by your attempt at formulating an argument about college tuition financing. When I observed that your argument contradicted itself, you responded by suggesting that I'm "angry at successful people", which is a pretty funny allegation.

Maybe first get good at writing simple arguments, then (and only then) perfect "shock value".

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#426

Post by formula1 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:08 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #423

formula1 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense alot of frustration and I hope this is cathartic for you. Your not entirely wrong that I dont understand the homeless problem. Would you going in depth? I can respond but I get the impression you have alot to get off your chest.

Don't hang your crap on me. I do not have a lot to get off my chest. I know a lot about the subject and you are making incredibly offensive, ill informed remarks. If you want to know some of what I have already said about the topic, you can check out http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ or http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/ . I am the author of both of them. And I have work to do today. It isn't…

Thank you for the information! So you believe that the homeless problem is greater if not equal problem to tge student debt problem?

What do you believe is a good solution to a large group of young able minds and bodies wasted from lack of employment and an oversaturation of low income workers due to the inability for college students to find middle class work?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#427

Post by skwosh » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:11 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #226

skwosh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was designing policy? Really all I'm talking about is not defunding/sidelining Arts etc "because it's not financially viable". The idea is really to provide a well rounded education, (giving students a broader perspective on the world, a stronger vocabulary for expressing ideas, etc), as opposed to a purely career focused one. I think it would be detrimental to culture and society in general if everyone was groo…

Part of it is just a shift in mentality. When we viewed education as a net benefit to society that society was willing to pay for, there was a natural downward pressure on the cost of education since the public was shouldering most of the burden to educate people. Once we shifted to the mindset where an education was valued based on how much extra money the recipient could make during his/her lifetime, that downward…

I agree of course - a society with at least some understanding of statistics, logic, anthropology (of media), etc is essential to a healthy democracy.

It would be great to see political/cultural literacy taken more seriously, but the trend as you point out has been in the opposite direction (and has been/will be for some time).

Being burdened with debt and not having the choice to pursue further education are the real problems, and can hopefully be solved in a way other than restricting access to those fields.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in this thread... it's pretty cynical (but not uncommon) to suggest that one's primary value to society is what they contribute economically (or otherwise validated economically).

I'm lucky that the situation is a bit more optimistic here in Australia...

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#428

Post by tptacek » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:15 PM UTC

formula1 wrote: post #426

Mz wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't hang your crap on me. I do not have a lot to get off my chest. I know a lot about the subject and you are making incredibly offensive, ill informed remarks. If you want to know some of what I have already said about the topic, you can check out http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ or http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/ . I am the author of both of them. And I have work to do today. It isn't…

Thank you for the information! So you believe that the homeless problem is greater if not equal problem to tge student debt problem? What do you believe is a good solution to a large group of young able minds and bodies wasted from lack of employment and an oversaturation of low income workers due to the inability for college students to find middle class work?

This response is not only incoherent but also attacks a straw man. "So you believe ${uncharitable reframing}" is almost never going to fly on HN.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#429

Post by formula1 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:15 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #425

formula1 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense alot of frustration and I hope this is cathartic for you. Your not entirely wrong that I dont understand the homeless problem. Would you going in depth? I can respond but I get the impression you have alot to get off your chest.

You tried the same rhetorical tactic with me. It's unproductive. You're no better at sensing the emotional state of other commenters than anyone else is --- which is to say you're unable to do it with any accuracy, and should avoid it. What you're doing here is really just a prolix way of saying "lol umad bro". Stop. Instead of trying to read other people's minds, could you put a little more effort into making a cohe…

Do you mind explaining how I contradicted myself? Honestly, Im trying to view this as if Im a parent about my child. If my child went to a loan shark and did something stupid, I would be angry at them. If my child went the official "promised" route to a better life through college for low income or higher lifestyle, I would be proud. If my child never went to college, I eould think there is something wrong with them unless they had an alternative path to success.

What is contradictary?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#430

Post by Mz » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:16 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #425

formula1 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense alot of frustration and I hope this is cathartic for you. Your not entirely wrong that I dont understand the homeless problem. Would you going in depth? I can respond but I get the impression you have alot to get off your chest.

You tried the same rhetorical tactic with me. It's unproductive. You're no better at sensing the emotional state of other commenters than anyone else is --- which is to say you're unable to do it with any accuracy, and should avoid it. What you're doing here is really just a prolix way of saying "lol umad bro". Stop. Instead of trying to read other people's minds, could you put a little more effort into making a cohe…

As someone who is routinely responded to as if I am "shocking" just for being me: There is little to no real value to be had from shocking people on purpose. It suggests there is no real substance to the argument. I plan to move on. This individual has wasted enough of my time.

Thank you for chiming in.