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New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

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Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#421

Post by metafunctor »

aikah wrote: post #388
metafunctor wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Vi editor was originally written on a terminal which had the Escape key positioned where the Tab key is on modern keyboards. So yes, rebinding Escape is the right answer if you heavily use it. The normal positioning for Escape is very inconvenient for touch typing. http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Avoid_the_escape_key

> So yes, rebinding Escape is the right answer if you heavily use it. nobody does that because it was unnecessary. Of course, now developers need to ADAPT the Macbook instead of the Macbook ADAPTING developer's workflow. That's not the definition of a developer friendly machine. The touchbar is a gimmick and even then it doesn't justify the removal of an entire row of keys. It was purely an aesthetic decision. But I…

In my experience, quite a lot of people who take working on the keyboard seriously remap some keys.

I'm more of an Emacs guy, but still frequently hit Escape (I use it as the Meta key in Emacs). I've bound Escape to the Caps Lock key for as long as I can remember. Like I said, the normal location of Escape is way too far from the home row, and quite bad for touch typing.

In fact, the entire function row is too far for me to conveniently use while touch typing, and I have long fingers. I probably won't miss the function key row at all.

I haven't used or seen the actual touch bar, so cannot really make a strong statement whether it's a useless gimmick or actually useful. I have my doubts, but it could turn out to be useful in some applications.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#422

Post by asimpletune »

bisby wrote: post #284
ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

> As a vim user, esc is pretty important.

So then wouldn't the esc be present on Touch Bar? It's not like it's the "useless stuff" bar.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#423

Post by grardb »

43812912 wrote: post #395
Spartan-S63 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fellow Vim user, I don't use the escape key anymore. It's awkward to hit and I rebind it to "jj" (or more recently "jk"). It's unergonomic to reach for the escape key where it customarily is. If it were where Caps Lock is, it would make much more sense. That said, I don't like rotating my hand or remove my fingers from the home row. It's really a non-issue because you can rebind keys so easily, it's not even fun…

Vim user here. I use the ESC key; I can hit it in a fluent motion while lifting the hand completely off the home row (much like a pianist). It gives an opportunity to relax the hand. For the same reason I'm not a fan of hjkl and often use the arrow keys.

This. I never "learned" how to type, and while I've tried, I simple can't get rid of almost 20 years of muscle memory typing like a buffoon. It's much easier for me to use ESC and the arrow keys than people who keep their hands on the home row.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#424

Post by jobigoud »

ag_47 wrote: post #339
ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

hmm, looking at the comments -- am I the only who uses Fn + Arrow Keys for Page Up/Down and Home/End purposes? How can you not?

I realize I don't know the first thing about MacBook keyboards. Are you saying they don't have Page up, Page down, Home and End?

Maybe a Windows thing but I use Function keys everyday, F3 for incremental search, F5, F9, F10, F11 for debugging. Not having these keys would be handicapping.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#425

Post by the_watcher »

No escape and function keys? Seriously? I've been using Karabiner (now Karabiner-Elements, which is rapidly becoming fully featured) to remap those keys for years anyway, since they're already located in a place that makes me hate having to use them.

The most useful key remapping, by the way, is Caps Lock to Escape.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#426

Post by optionalparens »

malensek wrote: post #198

Just curious: how many folks can accurately touch-type the Fn-keys? Personally they're too far away from the home row for me to hit accurately, but maybe that's because I use too many different keyboards and they're all slightly different with spacing. The esc key is easy with it being located in the corner, though. So in my case, I would already look down to hit an F-key, and I imagine functionality such as "compile…

Touch typing or not, I think you are missing an important point here with regard to programming - tactile feedback. Doubly so with anyone that uses mechanical keyboards like me.

For example, you may not know where the "f8" key is on your keyboard, but once you look down and locate it, you won't have trouble repeatedly pressing it, accurately, with velocity. A good example of where and why this pattern happens is debugging. A lot of IDEs and editors are setup by default to use f-keys for debug or other ancillary functions like build, specific menus, etc. I believe IntelliJ and Visual Studio in at least a few default setups and versions did this.

More specifically, I can't imagine pressing a touch button possibly dozens of times, sometimes rapidly to advance through a bunch of break points, set new break points, eval things, etc. It is true you could just map these to other keys, but that becomes an issue with anything that is using default key maps for functions as I describe. Additionally, touch buttons promote people to start using more and more keyboard chords as they start shuffling around things in their keymaps, which a lot of people dislike. I'm an Emacs and IntelliJ user primarily, so the former and my arthritis in my hands are well acquainted with regard to keyboard chords and complex mapping sequences.

I have not used this keyboard obviously, but it seems to me from my experiences using similar tech that this is only good for much lesser used macro-like or launch actions. Useful still, yes, but I don't think it is a 1:1 replacement for function keys. I said it in another article and I'll say it here, I don't think this keyboard setup is aimed at programmers, but for most consumers it is likely just fine as much as I hate it. As for value added, that's another discussion.

I do know that if I ever buy or am forced to use one of these, it will always be with my own keyboard. I don't mind the chiclets as much as some people, but at home or the office I use external monitors and mechanical keyboards whenever I can.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#427

Post by city41 »

denzil_correa wrote: post #327
bisby wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

> As a vim user, esc is pretty important. Would it not be possible to map the dynamic touchbar keys to Esc when one is using vim?

But then how do you change the volume when using vim? Does vim need a special touchbar that basically completely emulates the old keys? That seems excessive.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#429

Post by the_watcher »

bisby wrote: post #284
ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

As a vim user, esc is pretty important. I would say the author clearly knows very little computer specs: "The MacBook Pro had options with 2.4 gigahertz dual-core processors back in 2010. Anything new in 2016? Not really, well… nope." Because a 2010 2.4ghz dual core is identical to a 2016 2.4 ghz dual core.... I thought we got over comparing processors purely by their clock speed a long time ago. (I will agree that t…

Remap caps lock to escape. Karabiner-Elements can do this (Karabiner for pre-macOS).

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#430

Post by egeozcan »

joshstrange wrote: post #148
egeozcan wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really shocked about this, I mean, I had thought that they saw the future in USB-C after they previewed the MacBook.

? Thunderbolt 3 is compatible with USB-C (in terms of the port)

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks.

So does that mean that it also supports the USB protocol?

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