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Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

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Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#421

Post by NamTaf »

dayaz36 wrote: post #239
NamTaf wrote: post #163

This is going to keep happening until Tesla change their approach from a move-fast-and-break-things startup philosophy to sound engineering one that puts safety in design front-and-centre. Traditional real-world enigneers have been drilled in this for longer than living memory. When the software guys decide to bring their software appraoches to the real world, this is what happens. From 12 days ago: https://news.ycom…

You do know Tesla has the highest safety rating of any car ever rated in history right? https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best...

I do know that (to the extent that it's true). I also know that not driving head-first into a truck that's turning across in front of the driver, or into a stationary car when the one in front of you swerves around it, is even safer than having the highest safety rating.

Don't get me wrong - Tesla engineers are talented engineers. The culture of the company however is not suited to building mass-production cars. It's trying to put the Silicon Valley philosophy of rushing towards the future ahead of taking measured, reliably proven steps.

You don't build buildings or car structures via an agile methodology using customer feedback. Waterfall-style approaches are used because hammering out the long tail of risk is important. Car software technology must necessarily be no different.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#422

Post by JoeAltmaier »

NamTaf wrote: post #421
dayaz36 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know Tesla has the highest safety rating of any car ever rated in history right? https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best...

I do know that (to the extent that it's true). I also know that not driving head-first into a truck that's turning across in front of the driver, or into a stationary car when the one in front of you swerves around it, is even safer than having the highest safety rating. Don't get me wrong - Tesla engineers are talented engineers. The culture of the company however is not suited to building mass-production cars. It's…

Yet there's little evidence that any other car company is holding their car-control software to any high standard. They don't release it (for peer review) because they regard it as valuable IP. Then when forced to like Toyota did in the case of the Camry, its found to be the biggest pile of irresponsible spaghetti code imaginable.

So no, Tesla is not materially different in process. Perhaps in talent - Tesla has actual experienced programmers involved, instead of solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#423

Post by pc86 »

jessaustin wrote: post #417
pc86 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally speaking children are found to be at fault all the time, and under certain circumstances even treated as adults. So no, they're not incapable of being at fault.

Hypothetical question: would you send the bill for bumper dent-repair to the parents of the child who died making that dent?

Would I? Of course not.

Would my insurance company? Probably.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#425

Post by olau »

sien wrote: post #45
helmett wrote: post #25

TIL: car crashes happen. but because it's Tesla it gets 100x the attention

Tesla has gone out of their way to get more and more attention. For a company that sells only tens of thousands of cars it's pretty amazing. Until these recent crashes the majority of that press has been very positive. The downside of this is that when you get bad publicity it's going to be much bigger as well. That's the price of celebrity.

It was exactly the same with previous crashes. Electric vehicles are dangerous etc. etc. People would read one or two reports and jump to the conclusion that the cars were not safe.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#426

Post by danso »

Matthias247 wrote: post #277
readams wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll find suddenly braking in the middle of the road poses its own dangers.

The "Autopilot" (aka Lane Assist) of my VW does that. If you don't get your hands on the wheel after it wants you to do (which is about 10-15s) and after a first warning it will hit the brakes with a lot of power for the fraction of a second. So it's not actually stopping but giving you a clear signal that you should do something and would wake you up if you fell asleep. I don't know if it will come to a stop if you…

Apologize for not googling this myself: what mechanisms do autopilot programs have for detecting traffic conditions behind them, in terms of camera/radar/algorithms? Are they less robust than the mechanisms governing detection in front of the vehicle?

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#427

Post by jessaustin »

pc86 wrote: post #423
jessaustin wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetical question: would you send the bill for bumper dent-repair to the parents of the child who died making that dent?

Would I? Of course not. Would my insurance company? Probably.

Let me guess, you haven't done much work in public relations? Much worse for a company than doing some evil reprehensible shit, is doing such shit in a fashion that's an easy, emotional "narrative hook" for the media. A grieving mother clutching a tear-stained auto repair bill itemized with "child's-head-sized dent, one" is the easiest hook imaginable.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#428

Post by danso »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #422
NamTaf wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know that (to the extent that it's true). I also know that not driving head-first into a truck that's turning across in front of the driver, or into a stationary car when the one in front of you swerves around it, is even safer than having the highest safety rating. Don't get me wrong - Tesla engineers are talented engineers. The culture of the company however is not suited to building mass-production cars. It's…

Yet there's little evidence that any other car company is holding their car-control software to any high standard. They don't release it (for peer review) because they regard it as valuable IP. Then when forced to like Toyota did in the case of the Camry, its found to be the biggest pile of irresponsible spaghetti code imaginable. So no, Tesla is not materially different in process. Perhaps in talent - Tesla has actu…

Do you have links that support the assertion that Toyota was "solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding"?

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#429

Post by foolfoolz »

TetOn wrote: post #411
Vraxx wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not lulling anybody into anything! The guy was given multiple warnings by the car that what he was doing was unsafe. The last of which was extremely pertinent to the crash. To quote the article, "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel". This is after the initial alerts telling him that he needs to remain vigilant while using this featu…

I just want to see "the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel" followed by "and Autopilot then pulled to the side of the road, turned on the hazard lights, and required the driver to take over."

so far we have been lucky the accidents have only impacted the driver. is it going to take the first accident where an autopilot car kills another innocent driver before people see the problem?

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#430

Post by JoeAltmaier »

danso wrote: post #428
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet there's little evidence that any other car company is holding their car-control software to any high standard. They don't release it (for peer review) because they regard it as valuable IP. Then when forced to like Toyota did in the case of the Camry, its found to be the biggest pile of irresponsible spaghetti code imaginable. So no, Tesla is not materially different in process. Perhaps in talent - Tesla has actu…

Do you have links that support the assertion that Toyota was "solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding"?

No only my cultural experience with foreign engineers. Anybody over 25 still doing engineering/coding is considered a failure. Their career path includes management early. All the engineers I work with from Japan, Singapore, China are young and inexperienced.

And they are only allowed to report success up the chain. Management is fed a constant diet of sweet crap.

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