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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title implies that a significant number of British people voted to leave the EU without even knowing what it was, and that their opinion is therefore uninformed and should not be respected. You believe that's a "pretty clear and accurate summary"? Even if you do, you at least recognize the bias and that it's not really fitting for a supposedly-neutral news outlet?

Out of curiosity, what would be a better, non-biased headline then? I kind of agree with capote here, the title does summarize the contents of the article.

The entire article is hostile and biased; a biased headline that properly summarizes a biased article is not an accomplishment, it's just more propaganda.

First, we have to treat the source with healthy skepticism: Google, like most other large companies, probably wanted the UK to Remain, so they're going to release data that is intended to embarrass the Leave camp since they're bitter over their loss and want to prove that the vote was bad. An article stating that Google claims this is one of the most-asked questions is fine, but it's taken as de-facto true by the WaPo, which is improper. People tend to believe these things, but even results in peer-reviewed studies are totally and completely fabricated with surprising frequency. It certainly happens a lot with unauditable data like Google Trends.

Besides being incentivized to embarrass the British people, we also have to assume that Google is squashing various forms of the query into one block: "What is the EU?", "what is eu", "what is the e.u.?", and so on would be logical, but what about just "EU"? Is it counted? Surely many people would type that in to be directed to the official EU home page.

Second, even if it is an accurate representation of the search queries in the UK, there is not necessarily heavy correlation between people that voted and people that were asking that question. Many people who cannot or do not vote use Google, especially teenagers that are tech-literate but not yet of age to vote, and they may be seeking to be informed on the monumental decision that others in the UK just made.

Third, asking Google a question doesn't necessarily mean you don't know the answer. I often conduct queries for things I already know because I want to find a citation for a specific claim, I want to find a related image, or I want to see what other people think and/or say about the thing. This is pretty typical. For example, my last search was "howard dean yell" to find a link to the clip of Howard Dean's infamous "yeah". I've known about Howard Dean's yell since it happened in 2004. That I searched for this doesn't mean that I was ignorant previously; it just means I was trying to find something concrete.

Fourth, the way that Google presents suggested questions can cause people to click the option out of convenience, curiosity, or even just proximity, so we need not assume that every query is sincere or even intentional.

So, an unbiased first paragraph of the article would be something like this:

American web search company Google has stated that the query "What is the EU?" was among the most searched today, hours after the UK voted to leave the European Union.

Compare to the actual first paragraph, which literally says "it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for." That's open hostility and bias.

Aside from all this, there is bias merely in the selection of what to publish, even if the article and headline are written in a seemingly-neutral way. The fact that WaPo is choosing to publicize Google's unverifiable declaration in the first place lets you know where they stand.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#423
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what are those reasons that are so impactful that people should have voted "Leave"? Because I have not really heard a single informed argument about that, and the public discourse for Leave has shown an enormous gap in knowledge about what the EU actually is.

If you don't search for it, you want find it. I am not sure if the "Leave" people voted for it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons (xenophobia). I think its fairly easy to make a case of why the EU is a bad institution. I have made so here and other places. I think people are blinded by the idea of the EU but ignore the actual EU. Can anybody deny that the EU has shown horrible management in everything related…

The people of the UK voted for the Conservatives, on an explicit platform of austerity.

Only 37% of the population was needed for this, but this is because the UK voters had been apathetic about the opportunity to reform the voting system.

So how can they claim to be disappointed by the EU adopting the same polities?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#424
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing a lot of minorities and immigrants would be left out of representation. Who decides what's on the test, how do we decide that it's fair and not used just to justify that people conform to marketed opinions? How does this test help against those that are disenfranchised and without privilege? How do we challenge those with privilege and power and their positions and goals? This test sounds incredibly dyst…

How could Raven's Matrices be culturally biased: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices >How does this test help against those that are disenfranchised and without privilege? In the best possible way. By providing them with a competent government. >How do we challenge those with privilege and power and their positions and goals? Could you expand on that without using the term "privilege."

Your argument is that this proposition is valid notwithstanding the very real power struggle in society. Why would one want to even put someone through something as humiliating as an intelligence test to determine their rights. It reminds me of the reading tests during segregation to suppress black voters. If we would have implemented this test then, tell me would they have a fair chance in society?

At least from my perspective, the government is fair game for everyone. Already our best and brightest are working for us, however power is incredibly corrupting. The issue isn't the voter, it's the system that seeks to suppress and deny the will of the voter. The voter should have full responsibility, just like someone who decides to take unsanctioned drugs

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#426
post #242
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prop 8, for example. Or Prop 13.

Prop 8, officially titled Proposition 8 - Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry, was a statewide ballot proposition in California. On November 4, 2008, voters approved the measure and made same-sex marriage illegal in California. On June 6th, 1978, nearly two-thirds of California's voters passed Proposition 13, reducing property tax rates on homes, businesses and farms by about 57%. The Environment Prior to P…

The interesting thing about Prop 8 is, a few years later, the outcome of the vote has been totally reversed, same-sex marriage is the law of the land, and it now has solid majority support. The will of the people can change in a short time. You could imagine a similar outcome for the Brexit vote, if it weren't such a permanent change.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#427
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy can work but we all need to practice and support it. The citizens need to have leftover mental energy and time from everyday life to think and learn about politics, form opinions and engage in discussions with each other. Academia needs to be heavily invonved to provide unbiased, politically independent facts, pros and cons for each choice. And there may be a role for online platforms as well to support dir…

We cannot trust academia, they are a special interest in their own right. Their power depends on bureaucracy and big government, not to mention that their field is incredibly undemocratic itself, lots of research is funded or excluded depending on the political flavor of leaders.

Indeed, academia as we know it is somewhat broken. We can either fix it or replace it completely (eg. by some crowdfunded model) and give it a new name.

Either way, democracy would greatly benefit from an independent information source. While there are some purely subjective decisions to make in a society, a lot of them have some objective underlying facts (eg. is smoking harmful? is there a global warming?). Without an independent information provider, there's no way the average citizen could cast an informed vote on these matters.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#428
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I thought it was remarkable that the course of an entire nation can be so greatly changed by a 51.9% victory in a single vote. Seems like such an important change should require a supermajority of some sort. (And, of course, the original choice to join ought to have as well.) People are fickle and easily divided. For normal elections, we hold them regularly, and that gives people a chance to correct their mistakes or…

I agree. It seems like a 2/3 majority would have been better.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#429
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't search for it, you want find it. I am not sure if the "Leave" people voted for it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons (xenophobia). I think its fairly easy to make a case of why the EU is a bad institution. I have made so here and other places. I think people are blinded by the idea of the EU but ignore the actual EU. Can anybody deny that the EU has shown horrible management in everything related…

The people of the UK voted for the Conservatives, on an explicit platform of austerity. Only 37% of the population was needed for this, but this is because the UK voters had been apathetic about the opportunity to reform the voting system. So how can they claim to be disappointed by the EU adopting the same polities?

Because the EU is soled on a platform of European Unity and how they are the highest achievement of the European Political classes.

The UK has a reason for their bad system. They have a very gradualist history. Compare it to France, where we are talking about the Republic 5 right now.

If we are doing a project for European Unity is should actually be better then everything else. It should be better then Switzerland, not worse then the UK.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#430
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I think one solution is to hold the vote open for an extended period of time-- weeks, say. Keep an updated tally going at all time. That way, it's not just a high-stakes, one day event. Everyone will have a chance to vote, and nobody can (rightfully) say, "I wish I had voted, it didn't go the way I wanted" or "If I had known, I would have voted". You will know, and there will be time for you to vote still. If I under…

There is a huge logistics issue with the poll spanning more than one day: cast votes must be kept safe. The longer the voting period is the more expensive it becomes and more prone to tampering results.
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