Bootcamps vs. College

none that I'm familiar with.

Ok, you'll pass but how will you get through the advanced courses? I don't really understand the point you're making. If I combined these two statements together, I get "it's the exception to the rule because most grads just memorize enough to pass"

No, we don't have varying views of what abstract thought is (let's drop the "difficult" cause it's irrelevant). Your view is simply wrong because even your "how would you build an inventory system" takes a tangible (inventory system) and asks you to come up with a programming (abstraction layer above 1s & 0s) solution.

Some examples of not abstract thinking:

* Memorizing (good one you nailed it; bad that you insinuate most engineers coast through 4 years only learning to do this)

* Observation

* Memory-recall

Some examples of abstract thinking:

* Math

* Imagining something

* Philosophizing something

What you're referring to is abstract problem solving, which involves two things specifically for engineers: math & imagination.

You didn't answer the question. Do you have a CS degree? I don't think you know what you speak of, and I would not go around telling people "most CS grads just coast thru never abstract thinking." Your fictional split of programming VS abstract thinking I already proved is false with my painting analogy.

So again -- do you have a CS degree? What was your experience like? And if you don't, well, maybe you shouldn't be talking.

> Do you think there are smart people who would or could be good developers who did not major in computer science and later went on to attend a 'bootcamp'?

Yes.

> Do you think it's possible that developers who are not good could graduate from college with CS degrees?

Absolutely.

The difference is that the boot camp experience seems to provide a different skill set from a full-time degree (see the article that started this conversation).

I personally like Computer Engineering as a degree for this reason. I didn't take some of the higher end theory classes, and spent time in a lab making a chip do what I wanted, when I connected it to some device. I still remember the day that "multithreading" suddenly made sense to me, after spending a night trying to debug why i couldn't properly take characters off of a serial port and do stuff with completed strings on a network port. :-)

I would love to add a few comments. I do not know about the specific CS program nor code bootcamp they are specifically are comparing about, but I can speak to a general CS degree and the general bootcamp education. Full disclosure, I am a founder of a coding bootcamp.

Nothing can replace a 4 yr degree with basis in theory and multiple subjects but bootcamps offer people a way to jumpstart a lagging career or make a step into a new one. Being hirable in this industry is saying something, and that is what a great bootcamp should do.

That being said bootcamps are teaching current real world and career-like solutions. Many argue that you don't actually get the real-world experience in CS 4-year degrees due to behind the time curriculum (due to long approval processes that coincides with accreditation) and long and sometimes boring lectures without a lot of application. Bootcamps take a flipped classroom, hands on, and immersive approach. Less lecture, more project-based learning.

Many developers fall under the 41.8% group on the recent StackOverflow study of self-taught developers. A very large number of developers in the market are finding their skills in very non-traditional ways. What many CS grads learn is undoubtedly useful, I would never take anything away from that, but with software expanding into so many different fields, blurring the lines between who was traditionally an "engineer" and who isn't, and with the increasingly rapid pace at which languages/frameworks/best practices are constantly changing, there are a lot more opportunities to contribute in code than by cooking up advanced algorithms with linked lists.

In fact, many of our partner employers were frustrated by the lack of applicable, modern technology competency by the CS grads they were interviewing. As only one piece of anecdotal evidence to this: we've had various CS grads take our programs because (as they described) they only learned languages that were not anywhere to be found in the companies they were interviewing with.

Companies are starting to recognize that those who apply themselves in a bootcamp are able to learn quickly and adapt to new technologies and projects easily. Employers are looking for someone to get the job done with the skill set that matches the technologies that they practice. Many employers don't care if employees have acquired that skill set in a garage when they were 12 years old, at MIT, or at a coding bootcamp.

But, bootcamps aren't for everyone, you really have to apply yourself and consume content quickly. But if those requirements are met, bootcamp attendees really can excel! I know because at ours we have had so many success stories just like the afore mentioned where a student truly applies themselves, lands an amazing job, or starts a hot tech company and truly changes the trajectory of their life. Plus it happens in a tenth of the time of a 4-year degree and at a fraction of the cost ;)

Bootcamps offer a more personalized mentoring. Being able to see delegates, resonate with students emotionally, pick up on subtle nuances of communication and respond appropriately is the very essence of education. I believe passionately that training and coaching are not about getting something from one head to another, but are an intimate dance that transforms both parties.

I hope that helps a bit.