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My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

thecodist.com

421–430 of 634 posts

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#421
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, isn't $80k around the point where happiness from income levels off? The advantage of big money isn't just charities and companies - it's having your time back, since you're not tied to getting an income from it.

I feel like $80k must be an outdated number. My wife and I pull in just under $100k together, and we can't even (comfortably) afford a home. Between rent, student loan payments, health insurance, bills, and car loans, and food, I think we maybe have $500 left to throw around each month. If we were paying against a mortgage, that would basically be zero.

Mortgages are usually cheaper than rents on comparable units. The issue is that they require a big upfront chunk of cash to get into.

And, as a sibling comment stated, it depends on location. I think $80k is right for most areas of the country. If you live in NYC, SF, LA, or another place with really high cost of living, adjust accordingly (which is probably like 2.3x).

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#422
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, isn't $80k around the point where happiness from income levels off? The advantage of big money isn't just charities and companies - it's having your time back, since you're not tied to getting an income from it.

I feel like $80k must be an outdated number. My wife and I pull in just under $100k together, and we can't even (comfortably) afford a home. Between rent, student loan payments, health insurance, bills, and car loans, and food, I think we maybe have $500 left to throw around each month. If we were paying against a mortgage, that would basically be zero.

It's definitely outdated, or at least location dependent. The average rent in Manhattan in 2/16 was $3,850. Landlords won't rent to you unless you earn 40x the monthly rent which is $154k. In Brooklyn, the average is $2,716 which ends up being $108,640. (http://www.mns.com/brooklyn_rental_market_report)

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a place with a slightly higher COL and make about that with no benefits. I also have about 4 years experience. Some people just make shitty career choices or don't get lucky/unlucky.

Then keep looking? The market favors the developer right now.

Oh I do. But I hear this a lot more than I see it, especially in the Midwest without a degree.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#424
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. In post-industrial society, we seem to have lost the true sense of independence. Almost all of us now depend on the good graces of an employer to be able to pay for our needs. That is not independence, it is fiefdom. Meanwhile, true independence is derided as families who provide for their own and are able to pass an inheritance on that grants their children and their grandchildren a degree of autonomy are mocke…

If I have a skill that a large number of people are willing to pay for them that in itself represents independence. Earning potential is far more valuable than money. And guess what, if your children decide not to use those banks and universities, and don't get jobs then they may be "independent, but they are also dead weights. If they don't have skills that contribute to society, they are irrelevant. I agree that pe…

>If I have a skill that a large number of people are willing to pay for them that in itself represents independence.

No. Having an in-demand skill is a tool to obtain and keep independence. It's not independence itself. There are many people out there with high-demand skills who still find themselves unhappily slaving away in a job where they must do someone else's bidding for 40%+ of their waking day. Once they have the property and assets to make that an optional activity that they can leave at any time, they are independent. Having the ability to go find a new master if you get fed up enough with your current one is good, but it's not really independence. Independence is the freedom to control how you spend your days, and unless you're debt-free, own your living space outright, and have a consistent, sustainable source of food, you don't have the option to not work.

> If they don't have skills that contribute to society, they are irrelevant.

Define "contribute to society". I think you're being way too exclusive here. There are ways to contribute to society without being part of the industrial workforce. Just ask the big bosses, who, incidentally, are the ones pushing this narrative that life is meaningless without their patronage. You don't have to be a professional to make a meaningful contribution. In fact, I would argue that being a good parent has a far greater positive social effect than being a good professional.

>And guess what, if your children decide not to use those banks and universities, and don't get jobs then they may be "independent, but they are also dead weights.

A bank provides people with very little actual value, so I'm not sure why you included it. I will be immensely pleased if my children can go their whole adult lives without having to pay a cent of usury. It's a massive hidden tax on the middle class, making every major purchase cost about 2-3x its sticker price.

If you think about it, you'll see that much of our industrial culture is based on guaranteeing this effortless income to usurers, and I want to break that cycle for my children. This is also a large part of why the media wants to promote negative images of independent wealth; they're trying to protect their dirty income streams and reinforce their position as a hidden cost that people just accept as an implicit requirement.

Of course the children of independent people should be taught to do something useful with their time and lives. I think that by and large, they are. You don't hear about that because it doesn't please the massive indentured population to hear about it on TV, but if you look around, you'll see that it's generally true.

And in the age of welfare, you don't have to be independently wealthy to be a layabout or a loiterer. It's no longer an exclusive privilege, so providing a decent estate that will allow your posterity to have its freedom and control its own destiny is not really any more dangerous to individual productivity than not doing so.

>I agree that people should have access to enough money to realize their potential, but not more than that.

I absolutely do agree that too much money in the wrong hands is a recipe for disaster.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#425
post #235
post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

>My sister started as a programmer 30 years ago but jumped into management [...] My sister has 10X the assets I have. It's so hilarious that he calls himself a "programmer". With 30+ years of experience, you're a software engineer, an architect, and best of all, a consultant. Then you charge 5x the normal rate of a salaried engineer, work normal hours, and start accumulating real assets. He needed to put down the tec…

The term "personal branding" is an oxymoron.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#426
Over the years I’ve seen how little ability you have as a programmer, no matter how good you are, at making a difference or changing things that are broken. I simply didn’t realize how little room you have to advance as just a programmer (or even architect or the like); the power to change exists at a level not available to you as a mere delivery device.

Not only will you not have the ability to change much (either about your environment, or in what direction your company takes as a whole) -- you'll frequently find your fate decided by people who have even less general business knowledge than you do, and little or no experience actually managing people.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True - it's impossible to know every detail of his situation. That's why I put the disclaimer about his health. Regardless of those things though, for most people making a decent salary, they can put themselves in a good position for most scenarios by: - Saving as much as they can of what they're earning. Ideally at least 50% - Avoiding debt - Investing their money in low cost index funds

I may sound like an old fart, I am one too, but you sound like a very young one. Peeked at your profile and I see I'm right. May you grow up without troublesome times in your life. May I add to the list of 'excuses': - Getting hit by a bursting tech-bubble (as I was, we're talking a significant hit in terms of employment as well as retirement accounts, stock market and having to drain existing reserves) - Living in a…

I appreciate any perspective from people who are much older. I see having a family someday as one of the larger financial variables for me in the coming decades, so I try to prepare for that as best I can.

In defense of my age (and implied lack of life experience), I've unfortunately had significant medical issues in my twenties, which in turn led to some decent sized bills I've had to take care of, so I know a bit about troublesome times.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True - it's impossible to know every detail of his situation. That's why I put the disclaimer about his health. Regardless of those things though, for most people making a decent salary, they can put themselves in a good position for most scenarios by: - Saving as much as they can of what they're earning. Ideally at least 50% - Avoiding debt - Investing their money in low cost index funds

I may sound like an old fart, I am one too, but you sound like a very young one. Peeked at your profile and I see I'm right. May you grow up without troublesome times in your life. May I add to the list of 'excuses': - Getting hit by a bursting tech-bubble (as I was, we're talking a significant hit in terms of employment as well as retirement accounts, stock market and having to drain existing reserves) - Living in a…

[deleted]

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#429

I think this guy may actually just be dumb. Yes, C-Suite positions make more money, and get to make more decisions. If he wanted to do that, it sounds like he could have at any time. Of course just being a programmer would earn you less. > Being a programmer for nearly 35 years... > I doubt I will ever be able to really retire. How do you have a good paying job like being a programmer/the other high level gigs he men…

My assumption would be that he means this a bit less than literally. I'm 40 now, have always lived frugally, and could reasonably retire now. But when retirement starts to look like a real thing in front of you, all you can think about is the "what ifs". Medical bills, kids college tuition in 15 years, stock market crashes, living to 120. And looking back, if I had the opportunity to make 10x, that's such a huge difference not in the amount of "stuff" I'd buy, but the amount of security I'd feel making the jump to retirement.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#430

I will always be a programmer, no matter what. My regret is only about not being richer, that's all. I don't want another kind of job ; I want a shitload of money, so I can code whatever I want all day long, until I drop dead at the TTY prompt. Plus do a ton of cycling, running, guitar playing and such. Regret over not having tried this job or that seems misplaced to me. If the job you're missing out on could be done…

I love that last paragraph, and the idea of management-as-a-hobby. That's a great way to think about it.

You can make plenty of money as a programmer. Plenty, as in, I have enough to enjoy my job and my family, be relatively independent, and succeed at life.

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