Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 497 posts

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#421

Post by obituary_latte »

jacquesm wrote: post #327
obituary_latte wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a shitty outlook. Even worse is that I agree. Can we do anything to change it?

That is the million dollar question. And it's a hard one. I believe that yes, we can do something but I don't believe there is a magical incantation or a simple and short thing that we can do. It will take many years (decades) to slowly un-wind this mess and in the meantime it could get a lot worse and that lone might be enough to lose the plot on any plan that isn't perceived as a silver bullet but that actually has…

>That is the million dollar question. And it's a hard one. I believe that yes, we can do something but I don't believe there is a magical incantation or a simple and short thing that we can do. It will take many years (decades) to slowly un-wind this mess and in the meantime it could get a lot worse and that lone might be enough to lose the plot on any plan that isn't perceived as a silver bullet but that actually has a chance of working

I admire your patience for sure. The hope that we have decades to unwind this mess.

I fear, though, militant religious sects may not have the same self control.

I fear that the inability or lack of willingness to meet violence with violence may be the downfall of rationality. We rightfully shun violence in place of discussion, but as is evident (again), we are not dealing with rational actors.

I think a discussion about how we can realistically meet this violence with violence is warranted. Sam Harris made a good argument for this in this podcast: http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun-...

We have in a way changed the paradigm already. A bad actor brandishing a box cutter on a plane is to be sure to be met with resistance that wouldn't have been seen pre 9/11.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#422

Post by pvaldes »

pyrrhotech wrote: post #212
Houshalter wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because people let it. There is little danger form actual terrorism, but there is massive danger from people's reactions to terrorism.

I think you'd feel differently if you had a loved one in the towers on 9/11

I even think that if you had a loved one in the towers on 9/11 you could feel inclined to go to a third unrelated country, like... lets say Irak, and start to killing thousands of innocent civilians, also loved by somebody. This would be a bad idea of course.

Flashing the towers card here sounds a little embarrassing in retrospective. Sadly, the I.Snake is also the bastard son of Bush great plans for Irak and the Guantanamo shame.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#423

Post by jacquesm »

yarou wrote: post #383
jacquesm wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go down that route you'll have a hard time explaining 'Jihad John' and the many western youths (including some that are extremely pale skinned) and that suddenly feel the need to join IS or do something else that is profoundly stupid and against their self-interests in every way.

That doesn't have anything to do with religion. Everyone has an existential crisis in their life, and desires to become a part of something greater than themselves. The traditional institutions in Western society that promoted this sense of belonging have been eroded in the recent decade, which could explain the trend toward joining organizations like ISIS and their ilk.

That is much closer to the root cause than most analysis I read in the media. But it's a much harder problem to tackle and does not make for infotainment and so will get a lot less airtime.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#424

Post by solidsnack9000 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #274
stvswn wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France jealously guards its secular republic. Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). The French are notably resilient in the face of intimidation (see the protests and solidarity after the Charlie Hebdo shootings). There's a lot about the French for terrorists to hate, which is worthy of admiration in my opinio…

> Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). That's not separation of church and state, that's suppression of unpopular religion by the secular state, which is no different than suppression of unpopular religion in favor of a popular religion by the state. (And its not just in schools, though that was one of the fo…

On the face of it, there isn't any language targeting a particular religion or its symbols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...

The French do have a fairly rigorous approach to separation of church and state. Where do they cross the line into something blatantly discriminatory?

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#425

Post by PedroBatista »

elros wrote: post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

Crazy people that identify as muslims, emotions are running high but lets not pause our common sense in fear of "offending" someone somewhere. Leaning to left-wing extremism, going to a public gathering tomorrow and posting an inspiring slogan on Facebook doesn't do any justice for the dozens killed either.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#426

Post by dan_dimerman »

aikah wrote: post #332
deanCommie wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not excusing the terrorists. I'm trying to keep in check the people who are commenting on this and just saying "well yeah, this is what happens when you have 10% muslims in your country". I'm not defending the terrorists. I'm defending people like your family who will be lumped in with them in the next couple of weeks as people blame all of this on immigration and islam, like they do every time. The fact is, we a…

> I'm not excusing the terrorists. I'm trying to keep in check the people who are commenting on this and just saying "well yeah, this is what happens when you have 10% muslims in your country". You're not trying to keep people in check, you are as ignorant as the people saying racist comments with your stupid pomo explanations. > I'm not defending the terrorists. I'm defending people like your family who will be lump…

these toy post-moderns don't notice that they are infantilizing muslims with all their bullshit. you are 100% correct: being marginalized is no excuse to become a monster.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#427

Post by jacquesm »

powertower wrote: post #412
jacquesm wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, strongly. I disagree because specifically this is the reaction that these attacks are supposed to provoke leading to a further split of society and if possible an even more fertile ground for further radicalization. Essentially that's the other stroke of the piston. If you really want the engine to stop then please do not react in the way these assholes want you to. Islam has nothing to do with this whats…

> Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever I recognize your username and I know you are highly intelligent, but how can you ignore all the daily evidence, crime statistics, the shows of intolerance + hatred + violence that Muslims put out towards the natives, all the logic and reason, and all the correlations about the Muslim population in Europe?

Because 'Muslims' are many, and terrorists are few.

The Muslims that I know are very much upset about all this and fear for their future, if anybody is upset at the acts of terrorism by their nominal brethren it is them because they are confronted on a daily basis with the fall-out from all this. The scary bit is that the backlash against them drives them to become defensive and that's the one thing that should not happen.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#428

Post by scrollaway »

elros wrote: post #354
scrollaway wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in greece, but france is my country and I haven't heard back from my sister who lives around there. I know the odds are she's fine, but there's still the doubt in my mind. It certainly feels different when you feel affected. You want to be reactionary. You want to have a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe I now understand why people are so quick to try to blame the issue on a certain cause. But inside me I've spent my…

Is she on Facebook? You can try https://www.facebook.com/safetycheck/paris_terror_attacks/ . J'espère que tout vas bien.

Thank you. It didn't help unfortunately.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#429

Post by jacquesm »

NoCulturalFit wrote: post #402
jacquesm wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's because of dhimmis like you" Is specifically against HN guidelines for commenting. Otherwise we're in violent agreement, that whole 'war on terror' thing is bankrupt and it's high time that that was acknowledged in the places where it matters but that will take a lot of time and a very different approach to problem solving.

You probably should look up what dhimmi means as you just proved that you've bought the "war on terror cause terrorists" bs. Full on dhimmi.

I actually happen to know what that means and I take offense at your stupid slur.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#430

Post by dragonwriter »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #424
dragonwriter wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). That's not separation of church and state, that's suppression of unpopular religion by the secular state, which is no different than suppression of unpopular religion in favor of a popular religion by the state. (And its not just in schools, though that was one of the fo…

On the face of it, there isn't any language targeting a particular religion or its symbols. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c... The French do have a fairly rigorous approach to separation of church and state. Where do they cross the line into something blatantly discriminatory?

> On the face of it,

On the face of it, sure; OTOH, the specific targeting of traditional attire of certain Muslims was overt among the promoters of both the ban you link to and the broader ban on face covering in public spaces.

Post reply on HN