Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 437 posts

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#421

Post by habosa »

brc wrote: post #172
pavornyoh wrote: post #19

> What really keeps women out of Tech? It is because they don't want to be there. The opportunity is there for everyone to take thus men and women. I actually think women have an advantage in this space and it is up to them to see it and advantage of it. As a woman, I am tired this. If you want it, go and get it. There shouldn't be any special treatment. Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be t…

I tend to agree with this. For whatever reason, girls just don't like the work. When I stated studying, the ratio was 50:50 split. By graduation time, it was down to 80:20 as he girls transferred into different courses or dropped out. I was friends with many - as they changed or dropped out they all said they don't like the subject matter or the type of work. By the time we all started working, it was further down to…

Regarding the dropping out, I think it is (at least partially) due to a lack of positive reinforcement. Imagine two students, one male and one female, who were both good science students in high school and decide to take CS 101. They both get a 70% on the first test. The male student will (implicitly or explicitly) be told "shake it off, you'll do better on the next one" while the female student will be told "well you tried, maybe CS isn't your thing". I used to see this a lot in engineering classes, the male students took the failures as a fluke and the female students thought it meant they should do something else.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#422

Post by omonra »

AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #201
omonra wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine that to someone of your political persuasion, this is self evident. But humor someone who doesn't share your views and actually demonstrate (empirically for example) that you are right. I personally don't care whether the geeks who work at a given tech firm are of particular gender or race, as long as they produce quality stuff. I would care if someone couldn't get into the industry because they are X - but…

Not sure where my political orientation comes into it. Also note I am not from the US, so it is unlikely I fit into whatever weird party conceptions you have over there anyway :) The point I was making that increasing numbers and diversity in something means more stuff is produced and there is greater innovation. It means the pool of candidates for a given role is larger, allowing better selection. This is all self-e…

Ok - you think so, I don't. So we can agree to have a difference of opinion.

However - on my side is every single real-life example of success in tech. EVERY SINGLE successful technology company was NOT diverse (and only once they get big enough to be targeted by diversity scammers that they start to pay lip service to this). Therefore if diversity was indeed at all important, wouldn't you be able to point to examples of more diverse companies being actually more successful? Heretofore the empirical argument is 100% against you.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#423

Post by douche »

Mz wrote: post #144
rewqfdsa wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the vast majority of HN participants are male, the leaderboard composition is a function of demographics, not some kind of "man filter" you've had to overcome. If your username is so generic that people frequently misgender you, how can it also be the case that you're simultaneously held to a higher standard on account of being a woman? (Well, you might imagine that commentators here are _deliberately_ misgenderin…

Have an upvote. I agree with some of your points. It took me a very long time to conclude my gender was a factor on HN. Compared to other male dominated environments I have spent time in, my treatment here has been spectacularly good. It is one of the reasons I worked my ass off to resolve some of the problems I had here. I went through a period where I was getting a helluva lot of flack, where it was clear to me tha…

Does it occur to you that you might be getting a lot of flack because you can be so combative and come across, frankly, as a little paranoid?

This is not the first subthread I've seen get detached and marked off-topic because it degenerated into a back-and-forth scrum that doesn't make anyone look good. It's too bad; I was getting a pretty good return of InternetPoints™ for my quip about bronies...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#424

Post by test1235 »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #216
tptacek wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to be gender-specific with my example, just showing how something you can do as a manager to build culture can exclude and alienate people. (Though: I do think beer drinking trends masculine.)

Right: nobody bonds over building shareholder value. They bond over shared interests. But there are no _universal_ interests, so team-building is a quandary. I think the best you can do is rotate events and make sure most people are interested most of the time. Maybe after the beer offsite, you can visit a winery, or a famous local coffee house, and then a museum.

I think the closest universal interest for me has been music. I don't really drink and I don't really talking to drinkers when I'm sober but I always love going out to gigs with pretty much anyone.

It's not exactly the most interactive activity when you can't talk for 80% of the time, but it's still enjoyable and sociable.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#425

Post by ap22213 »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #230
ap22213 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got somewhat distracted by your use of words (e.g. pundit class) which seem to be meant to be purely inflammatory (not sure if you meant to be - but it is). But, let's say I follow your logic on its own. Should I just believe that there's no systematic discrimination? How could I be confident that there's not any? And, as a parent of a bright and mathematically-inclined daughter, should I discourage her from a fiel…

You're right that "pundit class" is too inflammatory. I've edited my comment. > Should I believe that there's no systematic discrimination? How would I be confident that there's not any? Nobody can prove the absence of systemic discrimination. You also can't prove the absence of lizard people. The burden of proof rests on those making the positive claim. Look at how the technology industry tries very hard to attract…

Still not following. Believe me, I'm really trying, but something seems off. Maybe an analogy would help.

We have two populations A and B. A has walked slower than B. One individual, a1, says 'hey I suspect B (who controls the food) is withholding vitamin X'. Evidence is uncovered showing this to be true. A is given vitamin X, and A begins to walk faster.

However a subset of A still doesn't walk as fast. Again, an investigation is done, and it's shown that B has also been withholding vitamin Y. After vitamin Y is given, that subset of A also begins to walk faster.

Then, a smaller subset of that subset shows initial gains in walking speed, but recently their speed has dropped off significantly. So, A is given even more vitamin X and Y. But, that doesn't help. So, instead of suspecting that B is withholding vitamin Z, we should take them on their word that recently the terrain has changed so that B just naturally walks faster than A?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#426

Post by Mz »

douche wrote: post #423
Mz wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have an upvote. I agree with some of your points. It took me a very long time to conclude my gender was a factor on HN. Compared to other male dominated environments I have spent time in, my treatment here has been spectacularly good. It is one of the reasons I worked my ass off to resolve some of the problems I had here. I went through a period where I was getting a helluva lot of flack, where it was clear to me tha…

Does it occur to you that you might be getting a lot of flack because you can be so combative and come across, frankly, as a little paranoid? This is not the first subthread I've seen get detached and marked off-topic because it degenerated into a back-and-forth scrum that doesn't make anyone look good. It's too bad; I was getting a pretty good return of InternetPoints™ for my quip about bronies...

Does it occur to you that when a man stands up for himself, it is not interpreted as combative, but when a woman does, she is clearly somehow to blame for everyone else's bad behavior? I have tried walking away. I have tried reaching out and attempting to build bridges. I have tried networkng. When I do the exact same thing men do, it gets interpreted differerntly and does not get me the results I am looking for that it clearly gets for men. Blaming me for the fact that women are fundamentally not as included here is just another form of sexism.

Upon further review, it was not detached at the point of one of my comments. So you are blaming me for something that may have nothing to do with my replies at all.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#428

Post by magicalist »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #419
GhotiFish wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. It could be that women are in fact far more effective programmers than men, and we're missing out on 70% of the brain power. hard to say.

That is unlikely. Otherwise women would have already dominated programming industry.

That doesn't follow in the slightest. There's more to "dominating" an industry than being effective at a job (I'd put that fairly low on the list as long as you hit some threshold, actually).

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#429

Post by magicalist »

sridca wrote: post #296
JesperRavn wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did I say that persecuted nerds have the right to cordon off CS as a refuge for their culture? I thought that I said the opposite. Your later comments suggest that you break things down exactly as I do: it's ok for nerds to be nerds, and it's ok for nerds to cluster in tech, but it's not ok to promote the idea that only nerds can do tech, or to promote an stereotype that goes beyond reality. Did you read my comment c…

The very fact that your previous comment was misinterpreted by tptacek to the point of castigating the imaginary nerds to give up their imaginary rights to "cordon off computer science as a refuge free from nerdiness" indicates to me that those people who are wont to blame the men in tech have little empathy to begin with. The nerd culture has been one of the most inclusive cultures I've been with. As esr wrote, "No…

And Jefferson wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...".

just because someone famous described a culture certainly doesn't mean it's true universally.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#430

Post by dennisgorelik »

magicalist wrote: post #428
dennisgorelik wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unlikely. Otherwise women would have already dominated programming industry.

That doesn't follow in the slightest. There's more to "dominating" an industry than being effective at a job (I'd put that fairly low on the list as long as you hit some threshold, actually).

What are more important reasons for dominating in the industry [other than being effective at a job]?
Post reply on HN