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How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

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Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#411

Post by awfullyjohn »

dba7dba wrote: post #347
Houshalter wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

George Orwell wrote a fantastic essay on this that is worth reading: >In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the profes…

dropping of the atom bombs on Japan I respectfully disagree that it's indefensible. It was either 100,000 Japanese civilians in those 2 cities OR million or more American casualties. AND if the invasion had taken place, millions and millions of Japanese civilians would've died also. I agree, with proper PR language, anything can be made look half decent and therefore tolerable.

This is disputable.

Please check out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8908197

And a great book on the topic: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674022416/ref=oh_aui_detai...

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#412

Post by Frondo »

itistoday2 wrote: post #410
digler990 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a quick google search shows you several countries that have no income tax. So sorry, you never researched your own argument.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Berm…

It is not theft.

You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft".

And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here.

Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#413

Post by ploxiln »

shit_parade2 wrote: post #363
ploxiln wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a US citizen who is very unhappy about "civil forfeiture", about mass surveillance, etc. But the reality is that most people in the US are not directly affected. I haven't really been affected, and I don't personally know anyone who has been. (yeah yeah it helps that I'm white.) Most US citizens who are aware of these things, like me, are very unhappy about them. But most people are not really aware, and one reas…

More people rot in American jails than any other country. America admits to torture and does nothing. America has a kill list that only the executive presides over and keeps secret. We've killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over the last decade and displaced millions. And yet here is a presumptuous America ready to claim moral superiority over Russians and Chinese. A horrific display of Orwellian doublethink.

China would have more prisoners if it didn't execute them all.

You can't see online news articles negative of Chinese leadership, in China, they're taken down or blocked for the entire country.

This is not "doublethink", this is just being realistic. China and Russian are, objectively, way way worse. If you don't see that, you've lost touch with reality.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#414

Post by shit_parade2 »

ploxiln wrote: post #413
shit_parade2 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people rot in American jails than any other country. America admits to torture and does nothing. America has a kill list that only the executive presides over and keeps secret. We've killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over the last decade and displaced millions. And yet here is a presumptuous America ready to claim moral superiority over Russians and Chinese. A horrific display of Orwellian doublethink.

China would have more prisoners if it didn't execute them all. You can't see online news articles negative of Chinese leadership, in China, they're taken down or blocked for the entire country. This is not "doublethink", this is just being realistic. China and Russian are, objectively, way way worse. If you don't see that, you've lost touch with reality.

Any citations for number of people China executes per year?

You simply state China and Russia are far worse but present no evidence.

America has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians over the last 12 years.

America holds people in indefinite prison without trial and even admits that they are innocent but continues to lock them away.

We torture people. We have secret kill lists. Our police rob citizens without punishment. Our politicians openly flaunt the law and go unpunished, as do bankers and large corporations.

Anything to support your view beyond mere assertion and blind allegiance?

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#415

Post by anigbrowl »

dTal wrote: post #232
anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're about people not claiming it in some some situations - for example, if cops burst into a warehouse and find a briefcase full of cocaine and a briefcase full of cash, it's reasonable to guess that one was being traded for the other. In this case it's also appropriate that the cash be charged, as in 'US vs $1 million dollars,' because the erstwhile traders haven't stuck around to be arrested. But it makes absolu…

>In this case it's also appropriate that the cash be charged, as in 'US vs $1 million dollars,' because the erstwhile traders haven't stuck around to be arrested. Um, what? "US vs kitchen knife covered in blood" "US vs flaming car wreck" Ridiculous. If an inanimate object is involved in a crime, it is evidence . Not a suspect! What does it mean to charge money with a crime? It clearly cannot defend itself, so the con…

Maybe you should educate yourself on the topic before getting all worked up about it.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#416

Post by titanomachy »

FireBeyond wrote: post #344
techlibertarian wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the anti-taxers want others to pay the cost of living in the modern world This simply isn't true. Anti-taxers want to choose where their dollars go - each and every one.

But are they happy to ensure that they avail themselves of not a single benefit they didn't contribute to - that'll be the flip side.

They couldn't even if they wanted to. E.g. Better social welfare, law enforcement, and education means less crime. Less crime benefits everyone in some way. Perhaps if it were made legal to commit crimes against people who don't pay taxes...

Even then, it would be basically impossible to avoid benefiting in some way without leaving the country altogether. There will always have to be at least some "core" services that everyone has to pay into, but that doesn't mean techlibertarian's idea totally lacks merit. Maybe some things should be partially opt-outable. Maybe people would start to question whether America really needs to spend half of its tax revenue on the military; maybe there would be more pressure to get some of the presently useless (and very expensive) 2.3 million prisoners back into the workforce.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#417

Post by ploxiln »

shit_parade2 wrote: post #414
ploxiln wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China would have more prisoners if it didn't execute them all. You can't see online news articles negative of Chinese leadership, in China, they're taken down or blocked for the entire country. This is not "doublethink", this is just being realistic. China and Russian are, objectively, way way worse. If you don't see that, you've lost touch with reality.

Any citations for number of people China executes per year? You simply state China and Russia are far worse but present no evidence. America has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians over the last 12 years. America holds people in indefinite prison without trial and even admits that they are innocent but continues to lock them away. We torture people. We have secret kill lists. Our police rob citizens with…

It's well known.

"in 2008, 2009, and 2010, the Dui Hua Foundation estimated that 5,000 people were executed each year in China – far more than all other nations combined.[2] [1][3] [4] However, the estimated number of executions fell to 2,400 in 2013.[5] The precise number of executions is regarded as a state secret.[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China

The US executed 40 - 50 people per year in those years. The US information is publicly available, of course.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#418

Post by shit_parade2 »

ploxiln wrote: post #417
shit_parade2 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any citations for number of people China executes per year? You simply state China and Russia are far worse but present no evidence. America has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians over the last 12 years. America holds people in indefinite prison without trial and even admits that they are innocent but continues to lock them away. We torture people. We have secret kill lists. Our police rob citizens with…

It's well known. "in 2008, 2009, and 2010, the Dui Hua Foundation estimated that 5,000 people were executed each year in China – far more than all other nations combined.[2] [1][3] [4] However, the estimated number of executions fell to 2,400 in 2013.[5] The precise number of executions is regarded as a state secret.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China The US executed 40 - 50 people per year…

Even at the higher rate of 5000 per year China would need 100 years of executions to bridge the gap with us prison population http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-popula...

This does not include the hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians the US has killed in the 21st century.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#419

Post by harryh »

dpark wrote: post #391
harryh wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assets aren't forfeited without evidence of guilt.

Yes, they are, quite frequently. That's the entire point of the article. It's also quite pretty much the definition of civil asset forfeiture. Assets are taken on simple suspicion of criminal activity, and the assets' retention by the state is not predicated on criminal guilt of the owner. In fact it is the assets themselves which are sued by the state (which makes no sense, but is nonetheless true). > Once property…

Yes, the DEA has to show evidence that the money is the result of a drug sale or some other illegal activity. They don't have to show that any given person was involved in that sale. I don't really have a problem with that.

Re: How the DEA took a young man’s life savings without charging him with a crime

#420

Post by j42 »

leap_ahead wrote: post #388
j42 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly we're really lucky to have these asset forfeiture programs in place; money has been given a free reign for far too long. The DEA is looking out for our safety by implementing this well-intentioned protocol... If the government didn't, who would hold our money accountable for the criminal behavior it's been involved in? Just look at the facts... almost 80% of bills have touched drugs! Appalling! And they're t…

>> The DEA is looking out for our safety by implementing this well-intentioned protocol Criminals have a large body of very smart people working for them to develop new creative ways or hiding money flows across different legal entities and different jurisdictions. These people don't travel with cash. You won't even find out their names. These laws don't help with serious offenders just catch some small fish on occas…

Very true, and actually you touched on something really interesting--when a government attempts to regulate social behavior that cannot be regulated (e.g. drugs, morals, thought, etc.) you see this dynamic take over.

In the case of black markets, yes, there is a great deal of obfuscation, however on a civil level and in business with the tax code it essentially creates an "arms race of precedent" in the courts, wherein those with capital exploit loopholes in the legal system to establish new precedents that can circumvent any spirit of the law for decades to come. In most cases I see this as a positive thing, but when state and federal prosecutors use this against civilians, it can have some truly ridiculous outcomes.

Speaking to your comment about the black market specifically, though, I raised this concern when Obama signed that executive notice last month pertaining to individuals on the SDN list--as a hypothetical, if someone on that list were to have a criminal enterprise, and if that criminal enterprise was using a legitimate merchant processing account to obfuscate funds (as per your "ways of hiding money"), then ANYONE who had ever processed a credit-card transaction with that account would be liable to have their assets frozen indefinitely and with impunity by the US government.

Dangerous precedent indeed.

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