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Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

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Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#411
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the military have the right, and legal duty, to refuse unlawful orders, including orders that violate the international laws of war. They do not have the right to unilaterally decide to violate a lawful order because they think it is better for humanity at large. They do not have the right to expose classified information because they think it shouldn't be classified. They do not have the right to violate o…

Having the "right to refuse unlawful orders" clearly implies that military personnel have some authority to evaluate the legality of orders.

They do have the right to do so, and in fact we expect them to independently evaluate it.

But much like a court of law, the presumption is that the order is lawful if given by proper authority, and the servicemember must then prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the order is unlawful, and be willing to take the risk of court-martial if they are wrong.

It also somewhat depends on the community you're in. Enlisted nuclear technicians on submarines probably disobey an order every other day at least, to keep an EOOW (or ENG) from doing something stupid to their nuclear propulsion plant.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you'll agree that the discussion on the parent thread was about newbies joining the army and not about Soldiers who are through with their training and know the many ways of 'dealing' with it.

I don't agree that there is a need to separate them. They are thoroughly indoctrinated going in, and during basic training. New Soldiers are given a battle buddy to watch over them, and a team leader to watch over them, and a squad leader, platoon leader, etc. Sorry, but it's just not there.

So you mean set of people who are yet to join the army are the same as the set of people who are already in the army? :-)

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's examine typical examples of authoritarianism: Stalin, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Franco, to name a few. Note these are people, not nations, yet they they instantaneously identifiable with the USSR, Cambodia, Chile, and Spain. This is a key aspect of authoritarianism - the origin of laws and their enforcement are from a person or cabal, not from the people of that nation. Dictatorship is not synonymous with authoritaria…

Much more useful. I would point out, however, that many people have begun to wonder whether bad laws can truly be rectified through a democratic process at this point. I am of the opinion that we have, or will soon, hit a sort of tipping point beyond which changing bad laws becomes unfeasible. At that point, aren't we essentially ruled by a cabal of economic and political elites, pushing us into the realm of "authori…

I think the entire concept of an entire body of law without a single bad law is implausible on its face. We can't even get computers to do "good things" in all situations and they do exactly what we tell them to and obey what are essentially very simple rules.

So the question shouldn't be "why hasn't the democratic process rectified bad laws", but rather "is there a better process than the democratic process for rectifying bad laws"? I know this sounds like Churchill, but it's also a bit of Gödel if you think about it.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These leaks damaged relationships with foreign governments. If truth hurts it's not a good sign.

Hint: you don't really want to hear everything your friends might think of you, much less your frenemies, acquaintances, or coworkers.

The very fact that lowly private Manning had access to this stuff should tell you that the intelligence services of literally any country in the world have access to this.

The system is only effective at hiding information from citiziens, who are not able to access the very information that politicians use to guide their decisions. That is, of course, why they happily go on record with blatant lies, at no risk of being exposed. Contrast this with their complete non-statements in this current NSA situation; they would rather make no statement at all than be exposed as a liar, for no one knows what else Snowden/Greenwald will release that could make previous statements look like disinformation.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#415
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't it Richard Armitage that did that? "He has acknowledged that he publicly released the classified information that Valerie Plame Wilson was a secret agent for the CIA, triggering the Plame Affair, though he has said it was inadvertent."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Armitage_%28politician...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17479718/ns/politics/t/jurors-conv...

AFAICT (and IMHO peculiarly) nobody in this "affair" was ever actually charged with "revealing the identities of CIA agents", and Scooter Libby was definitely neither tried nor convicted of same. He was convicted of crimes (perjury, obstruction of justice), absolutely, but none that match your claim.

Further, according to [1] the case was pressed anew as a civil suit (by Wilson(s), and later, CREW, against Cheney, Rove, and Libby) which reached as high as the Supreme Court, failing at each step.

"The Wilsons have asked the U.S. Supreme Court to hear their appeal of the U.S. Court of Appeals ruling. On May 20, 2009, the Justice Department, in a brief filed by Solicitor General Elena Kagan ...

"According to the brief filed by the [Obama] Justice Department:

"Petitioners allege that Novak's July 14, 2003 column publicly disclosed Ms. Wilson's covert CIA employment and that that disclosure 'destroyed her cover as a classified CIA employee.' Petitioners, however, allege that Novak's source was Armitage, and do not allege that any of the three defendants against whom Mr. Wilson presses his First Amendment claim-Cheney, Rove, and Libby-caused that column to be published. In the absence of factual allegations that Mr. Wilson's alleged injury from the public disclosure of his wife's CIA employment is 'fairly traceable' to alleged conduct by Cheney, Rove, or Libby, petitioners have failed to establish Article III jurisdiction over Mr. Wilson's First Amendment claim."[1]

(italics mine)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair#Civil_suit

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#416
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when enough members of the military decide to do what's better for the country against the lawful orders of the elected government that they serve, we call it a coup I'm not disputing that Manning broke the laws of the military. But calling his actions an incipient coup is laughable. In a world in which the worst offenders at Abu Ghraib got ten years (and were released much sooner), sentencing him to 35 years (as a…

Abu Ghraib a crime against humanity? Yes, that's similar to ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. That's nearly exactly the same thing as the genocide in Rwawanda. That's definitely on the same level as Pol Pot. The difference however is Abu Ghraib didn't put intelligence sources at risk, it didn't endanger the lives of people. How many people died in Abu Ghraib from being photographed with underwear on their head? How ma…

Do you have any source that would link arrest of Shakil Afridi to WikiLeaks and Manning documents?

I cannot find such a link.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#417
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when enough members of the military decide to do what's better for the country against the lawful orders of the elected government that they serve, we call it a coup I'm not disputing that Manning broke the laws of the military. But calling his actions an incipient coup is laughable. In a world in which the worst offenders at Abu Ghraib got ten years (and were released much sooner), sentencing him to 35 years (as a…

Abu Ghraib a crime against humanity? Yes, that's similar to ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. That's nearly exactly the same thing as the genocide in Rwawanda. That's definitely on the same level as Pol Pot. The difference however is Abu Ghraib didn't put intelligence sources at risk, it didn't endanger the lives of people. How many people died in Abu Ghraib from being photographed with underwear on their head? How ma…

> Abu Ghraib a crime against humanity?

Depends on how you define such, your examples meet old UN definition, Abu Ghraib meets newer ICC definition.

> How many people died in Abu Ghraib..

at least one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jamadi

> How many innocent lives were put at risk because of Abu Ghraib?

Depends on how you define innocent, but given WMD was a false pretence, and regime change the moral justification retreat position, torture and prisoner abuse at the same site as the former regime is pretty damning. I would say a lot of lives were put at risk by this change in 'optics'.

> let's get outraged about the Taliban..

No problem.

> By the way, the guys in Abu were fighting..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jamadi was a suspect, not a combatant.

> One specific and direct result of Manning is the case of Shakil Afridi

There's absolutely nothing specific or direct about Manning and this, the link you provide makes no such suggestion.

> There are dozens and dozens of intelligence sources and relationships that were significantly harmed because of Manning.

This was not to the case according to military testimony: http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/31/59869.htm http://www.thenation.com/blog/174622/seven-myths-about-bradl... (see number five.)

EDIT: I misread, thinking you meant injured or killed. It just hurt relationships, I think that point is fairly hard to argue. Sure, it hurt relationships. I'd say Abu Ghraib looms larger in their consciousness than the leaks that took place though.

> Being morally outraged over Bradley Manning puts you in the same shoes as a Taliban sympathizer because not only was Manning a soldier

Echoes of GWB: you are either with us or against us. Most people have the maturity to rise above this simplistic level of thinking.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#418
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bunch of pedantic garbage. The Japanese were willing to commit to total war to defend their right to conquer and massacre Chinese people and Pacific islanders and surprise-bomb the USA while they were at it. The only significant debate about the A-Bomb is whether it was more or less deadly than an invasion of mainland Japan. Any fourth grade history student would understand this. When people talk about the dec…

Actually, Japan were ready to throw in the towel as a result of the tripartite pact being enacted, and Russia joining the fray. Sakhalin was the trigger, and their worst fears were confirmed when the soviets raped and pillaged their way through the island, killing some 20,000 civvies. Atrocious. They surrendered because of Stalin and his unending and brutal (and brutalised, the Red Army was not a happy place) cannon-…

> Actually, Japan were ready to throw in the towel as a result of the tripartite pact being enacted, and Russia joining the fray.

People say this a lot, but no one has clearly explained how the U.S.S.R. would have been able to stage an invasion of the Home Islands of Japan. It's not a matter of simply ferrying a bunch of people over the Trans-Siberian railroad, you also need a navy, sufficient air cover (which if I remember my geography correctly would have almost necessarily meant carrier-borne aircraft), and the logistics to back that all up. Japan knew this just as much then as we realize it now.

The Soviet gains after their entry into the war were in China and Korea, not in Japan itself. Their entrance into the war was earlier than expected on the Japanese's part, but they knew the U.S.S.R. would declare war (seriously, you may consider their senior and military leadership stupid, but that stupid?).

Likewise the attack on the Kwantung Army in China was surprising in that it came from every direction possible instead of the one direction they expected it from. But they knew the Soviets would attack, and in fact the attack fell while the Kwantung Army was changing positions to better guard the direction they believed the attack would actually come from.

So certainly the Soviet attack came as a shock, but it was militarily no more severe than any other setback to the Allies.

> but outside of the US the majority agree that the USSR caused the surrender.

Don't take this the wrong way, but what does an opinion poll have to do with whether some event actually happened in a given way or not? It either did or did not happen for the causes described. If the rest of the world has better evidence for their belief then point to the evidence, but don't point to an opinion poll as prima facie evidence of something.

In the event we have evidence on the Japanese side that the atomic bomb proved a useful "excuse" to permit the Emperor to surrender. The Japanese were clearly ready to fight to the death (just witness the Battle of Okinawa), and that applied just as much against the Red Army as it did against the Americans. So simply changing the uniform of the person holding the rifle wouldn't have significantly affected the strategic calculus when the Emperor had to explain his decision to his people.

On the other hand, the atomic bomb was this technological doomsday device that even the most hardened Japanese militant couldn't speak against. You couldn't fight it in the battlefield; you couldn't simply hunker down like a brave citizen and start picking up pieces after the bombs had been dropped, now there were no pieces left to pick up at all.

Japan had nothing like it, and as such it gave the Emperor a clear line of reasoning for why he had to (had to) surrender for the sake of his people. It was something completely different and from out of this world, as opposed to a simple Soviet declaration of war.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abu Ghraib a crime against humanity? Yes, that's similar to ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. That's nearly exactly the same thing as the genocide in Rwawanda. That's definitely on the same level as Pol Pot. The difference however is Abu Ghraib didn't put intelligence sources at risk, it didn't endanger the lives of people. How many people died in Abu Ghraib from being photographed with underwear on their head? How ma…

> Abu Ghraib a crime against humanity? Depends on how you define such, your examples meet old UN definition, Abu Ghraib meets newer ICC definition. > How many people died in Abu Ghraib.. at least one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jamadi > How many innocent lives were put at risk because of Abu Ghraib? Depends on how you define innocent, but given WMD…

> How many innocent lives were put at risk because of Abu Ghraib?

further to what I wrote above:

On April 20, 2004 insurgents fired forty (40) mortar rounds into the prison. Twenty-two detainees were killed and 92 wounded. Commentators thought the attack was either as an attempt to incite a riot or retribution for detainees' cooperating with the United States.[6]

reasonable to surmise shelling was to stop or prevent information being given up under torture.

Re: Judge sentences Bradley Manning to 35 years

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you actually think that intentionally killing civilians to win a war is morally okay? I just don't hold that view. Even if the civilian deaths attributed to the A-bomb where less than that of a supposed land invasion?. WW2 saw lots of that. Think of the bombing of Dresden when the Allies whipped out the city with incendiary bombs because it was a mayor city factory (ammo, etc.).

Yes, even then. Even if you could be sure that there would be more civilian deaths (which you really can't be), there is a big ethical difference between choosing to kill someone and being forced to do it.

No one "chose" to kill civilians at Hiroshima or Nagasaki though. The U.S. dropped leaflets all over both cities warning them of the bomb.

Either way by your logic firebombing attacks such as at Dresden or Tokyo would have been just fine (oh no, my bomb had to have hit a barracks, not a hospital!) even though they can't possibly all have been right. So it's not even true to say that conventional bombing wouldn't have killed civilians; every pilot who went on a bombing mission, conventional or nuclear, knew that they were killing civilians too.

And both Hiroshima and Nagasaki had actual military value, it's not as if either of them were resort villages. If the Japanese decide to put tons of civilian structure in between the military establishments then that's on them. Conventional bombing was so inaccurate that practically the only thing you'd be sure to hit while trying to bomb a military target is everything around it.... including the civilian establishments.

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