Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#411

Post by EdSharkey » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 12:31 PM UTC

seldo wrote: post #284

"It's no longer necessary to be a computer person in order to use a computer, and that means lots of people are using computers who aren't computer people!" TRAGEDY! Lots of people use cars and don't know how to fix them. Lots of people live in houses but hire people to repair the plumbing or the electricals when those things break. You don't have to completely understand something to use something, and that's OKAY.

Alright, a lot of people don't understand where the wiper fluid goes and never pop their hood, and they drive around just fine.

But let me turn the argument 90deg: would you say the same thing about math or about reading? Yes, people DO live life without learning arithmetic or how to read, but they probably also have a higher likelihood of poor outcomes in life.

I think the argument being made is that, because computers are so vital to our existence today, fostering computer hacking as a skill and having a real understanding of the computer is a fundamental that must be taught for society to keep advancing.

The snark of the article muddies the waters, but I tend to agree with the sentiment. IMO, having kids get a deep understanding of computers and making scores more tinkerers/hackers is more important than teaching the next generation to drive cars.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#412

Post by unmei » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 2:04 PM UTC

jrs99 wrote: post #333

johnksawers wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've hit on what I think the core problem is: since forever (as far as I know) computers have been regarded as "magical and incomprehensible" - that is, non-technical people think they will never be able to understand what you just did with the proxy settings. So even if you show them and explain what you did, they never even consider that they could use that knowledge again in the future. I think this is a failure…

So true. In fact, I get really angry at people that use jquery to write applications if they don't know it inside and out. In fact, I don't even use libraries or even functions when I code unless I know exactly how they work.

That seems like an arbitrarily high standard for using a library. If someone wants to use jQuery so that they can use $() instead of document.getElement() is that really so bad? Libraries as a level of abstraction so that the user only has to know what a function _does_ not necessarily _how_ it does it.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#413

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 2:19 PM UTC

Kuiper wrote: post #226

I feel like the author defeats his own central thesis in his conclusion: It didn’t used to be like this. Using an OS used to be hard work. When things went wrong you had to dive in and get dirty to fix things. You learned about file systems and registry settings and drivers for your hardware. Not any more. In other words, people used to be technically literate because they had to be. Now, it's possible to utilize tec…

Not everyone needs to be good at everything, but it would be a nice change to stop pretending that "digital natives" are all computer wizards. They aren't, not even close - some of them fail with turning on their machines.

_If_ pepole need to computer wizards is an entirely different question, and it also depends on what they do.

As per the article: > I have one question for these policy makers: > Without reference to Wikipedia, can you tell me what the difference is between The Internet, The World Wide Web, a web-browser and a search engine? > If you can’t, then you have no right to be making decisions that affect my use of these technologies.

I'd expect people deciding on "computer things" to be experts on their decision matter. Unfortunately in our society it's possible for one person to show utter disdain for those concerns and decide about mandantory internet filtering at the same time and not be laughed out of the room.

And this problem _won't_ be fixed by the current teen cohort eventually entering positions of power.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#414

Post by pnathan » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

300bps wrote: post #309

brandon272 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I detect a lot of resentment in your post that could all be avoided by just saying "No, sorry, I can't fix your computer."

I detect a lot of resentment in your post that could all be avoided by just saying "No, sorry, I can't fix your computer." So I should lie to them? Because that's what I would be doing. The truth is that I can fix their computer. To make that a truthful statement it would have to be, "No, sorry, I won't fix your computer." Has a bit of a different ring to it, doesn't it?

I usually say that my rates for work are $X/hr, where $X is my freelance cost. Then I recommend finding a professional repair shop.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#415

Post by ceol » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 3:37 PM UTC

NoodleIncident wrote: post #395

ceol wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the author made a bunch of assumptions about her, too. Things like: She handed me her MacBook silently and the look on her face said it all. *Fix my computer geek, and hurry up about it.* That's quite a leap from merely the look on her face that you saw for all of 2 seconds before taking her laptop. To people like her, technicians are a necessary annoyance. She’d be quite happy to ignore them all, joke abou…

So what you are saying is that through some combination of luck and circumstance, you have never been treated like this? Good for you. Now stop calling people who have been liars.

What I'm saying is that rarely anyone is treated like that, and the OP sounds like he was just reading all of his insecurities into everyone he was assisting.

But what do I know? It's not like there are loads of other people in this very thread saying the... same... Oh.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#416

Post by Anechoic » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 4:33 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #224

glhaynes wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't at all understand why you're frightened of me not knowing how to do something that I'm not interested in, almost surely never will have to do, and can always easily learn if either of these situations changes. You learn the things you're interested in, the rest of us will each learn the things we're interested in. You can be frightened about that, but it's frankly overbearing.

Pop open your glovebox; there is a nice picture book in there that explains with nice line-drawing illustrations how to change your oil. It is easier in every way than assembling an arbitrary Ikea chair. If following instructions from a picture book is too much for you, then I am frightened, mostly for your own safety. Nobody is saying you have to figure out how do it in a sterile proctored testing environment with n…

Pop open your glovebox; there is a nice picture book in there that explains with nice line-drawing illustrations how to change your oil.

That hasn't been a given for many years. My 1998 Passat and 2006 Jetta manuals contained no information for DIY oil changes, other than change intervals and suggested weights.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#417

Post by adregan » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 6:34 PM UTC

tjr wrote: post #206

agentultra wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are vehemently proud of their limited technical experience. You can't even convince them that they should learn more so that they can solve their own problems. It's a hopeless argument to have with one of these people. They will only change their minds if they can convince themselves that it's important. Most people remain ignorant of the value of such skills. When there's cheap access to skilled labour t…

My home air conditioner stopped working a couple of weeks ago. I turned it off and on, but that was about the extent of what I felt I could intelligently do. I called a technician, who spent 15 minutes or less in my basement diagnosing the problem and replacing a capacitor. He charged me $115 to replace a $17 capacitor. I'm not complaining. I called him, I wrote the check, and I have a functioning air conditioner aga…

If stuff doesn't break often enough, your skills might get a bit rusty.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#418

Post by area51org » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 6:41 PM UTC

BruceIV wrote: post #371

area51org wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, relevant issue: I know people — in Silicon Valley! — who are proud of the fact that their elementary schools (private) have no computers, and avoid the subject entirely. Apparently they believe computing too early will change, for the worse, a child's brain. I suspect it would do the opposite: help their children be better critical thinkers than their parents obviously are. You know, books change the way the…

There are possible good reasons for this - I wouldn't give elementary students calculators, because they won't learn their math; similarly, in an educational environment (that's not teaching computing), computers are often more distracting than useful - the CS department at the university where I did my undergrad banned computers in first year lectures (not labs), because the students were playing games and browsing…

Calculators are not computers, and no one who understands what a computer is would suggest that one would somehow prevent a student from learning. We're talking about basic computer skills here: mousing, menus, command line, and some introductory coding. Those aren't nice-to-haves; they're necessities for elementary school students.

the students were playing games and browsing the web instead of paying attention in class

Sure, understood, but that's a red herring here. I'm not suggesting we outfit a whole classroom of second graders with laptops so they can play Angry Birds. I'm suggesting that children need computer skills.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#419

Post by w0rd-driven » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

andrewaylett wrote: post #410

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they can Google for what they want and follow simple instructions to get the computer to do what they want? Great, that's probably enough not to have to ask somebody for help with almost any computer problem/thing you want the computer to do. Using computers will always be an exercise in sensible and appropriate abstraction, in this case I doubt they need to know how jailbreaking actually works.

Except that's more like a Harry-Potter way of doing things, where if someone tells you the right incantation you can perform the magic, but there's no way you're going to fix things if it doesn't work and no chance of understanding what's going on in order to do anything new.

Yet his description is precisely how I became someone with over 10 years professional IT experience and 6 years over that as a developer.

My 386 era machine at the time was without internet. My first experience was through AOL and Netcom in the early 90's. I mostly got lucky when things broke as I would fix one thing and break another horribly.

Slowly over time I began offloading large chunks of brain power to the internet as Google and others started really upping their game. Now, as a developer I don't keep syntax idiosyncrasies between languages in my head, I search. I don't keep esoteric error messages from Microsoft Office in my head, again I search. The proper use of Google has practically paid my salary for the last 16+ years. Once Stack Overflow came on the scene, my developer skillset took a quantum leap and I suspect a lot of people could agree with that statement. Now, I can say with certainty a significant portion of my computer literacy comes from my ability to use Google effectively.

I'm completely convinced that teaching proper search techniques to just an intermediate level would bring a lot of people close to being at least "literate enough." I expect everyone to be able to solve any user software problem they have but that should extend to the OS as well. Hardware problems aren't that much harder to solve but they generally require more practical knowledge, like how a specific peripheral behaves under normal working conditions. That can easily be taught as well but I expect only people that care to not pay ridiculously high prices for repair would care to venture into this territory.

Regardless, this is a long way of saying this isn't a Harry-Potter way of doing things for most people. It might seem like magic at first to a vast majority even, but over time that will turn into confidence and skill to solve genres of problems, not just specifics.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#420

Post by w0rd-driven » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 7:38 PM UTC

craigching wrote: post #331

300bps wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I detect a lot of resentment in your post that could all be avoided by just saying "No, sorry, I can't fix your computer." So I should lie to them? Because that's what I would be doing. The truth is that I can fix their computer. To make that a truthful statement it would have to be, "No, sorry, I won't fix your computer." Has a bit of a different ring to it, doesn't it?

I would say "yeah, I could probably fix it, but it'll take me at least a few hours and even then it's not certain. You're better off taking it somewhere professionally where they can properly backup your data and be held accountable. These are the guys I'd recommend." No offense, but it sounds more like you want to fix it. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course, it's your prerogative.

This.

By agreeing to fix their problem, you are now held liable at least in their mind. You are that "professional that can safely backup their data..." or whatever else they think you are. Surely if you can handle a big corp IT department you can take all that proprietary software home (piracy) and solve their problem?

Now that I've left IT directly into software development, I get to play the "Hey I'm just as illiterate as you!" card which is at least partially true. I don't have expensive software or even take proper backups of my extremely important data I wouldn't store in the cloud. Would you want someone like me touching your computer? You shouldn't.

I've done everything I can to be unavailable. It's a choice and one I proudly make. I just don't have the free time for charity any more no matter who you are to me unless I'm actively seeking some form of community service.