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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#411

Post by kokey »

dkrich wrote: post #383

I think the main problem with this argument that software is eating everything and automation is replacing jobs is that it imagines the world as it is today, with the current set of jobs as fixed. Lest we forget a time when all goods were physical and there were no digital goods. The extent of what can be consumed by technology does have limits. But more than that, we as a society become wealthier, not poorer, when t…

That's the thing, instead of giving people a universal basic income and distorting the prices we should really keep on striving to make the essentials that people need as cheap as possible.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#413

Post by Tichy »

recusancy wrote: post #412
Tichy wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read it?

Am I wrong?

Well I read it because I wanted to know if it was really racist or not. Unfortunately that was 16 years ago, so I am not 100% sure of my conclusion anymore. But I think ultimately I didn't think it was racist. I seem to remember they explicitly wrote about the effect of environments.

Would have been curious to get an opinion by somebody who read it recently.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#414

Post by dgreensp »

jerf wrote: post #392
btilly wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians. Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

Having the vote hasn't given us any unholy powers to control the government's spending so far, so why would it? It's not even clear if any form of basic income would be voted for. We're just talking about changing from structure A to structure B in terms of how the government provides for people.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#415

Post by king_jester »

tomjen3 wrote: post #319
Jd wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that when consumer make bad decisions (i.e. don't go to the doctor and develop serious health problems), the government in the end still has to foot the bill. You can't turn people away from emergency rooms and have them die on the street.

I often find that when somebody claims "you can't do x" that we learn a lot by asking, why exactly is that. In your case I am wondering why exactly is that we can't turn people away - in aggregate it is likely to save more lives since seeing people dying would be an excellent motivating factor for others to make sure they pay their health care insurance -- and since they would therefore have it and would be able to g…

> In your case I am wondering why exactly is that we can't turn people away - in aggregate it is likely to save more lives since seeing people dying would be an excellent motivating factor for others to make sure they pay their health care insurance

How exactly does this help people in emergency situations? Or those who go undiagnosed with a condition despite having a primary care physician? What about those folks with a disability that makes it difficult for them to access health care? What about people who are discouraged from getting health care because of discrimination? What about people who live in rural areas far from some kinds of medical treatment?

Bottom line is that death is not a motivator for people in the way you think it is. Even if it was, what kind of society threatens its members with death for failing to participate in your model vision of capitalism?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#416

Post by mason55 »

daraul wrote: post #269
streptomycin wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A certain percentage of the population would stop working entirely since they no longer need to. True. The problem is, as things are now, a certain percentage of the population will be forced to stop working as they are made obsolete by increasingly efficient globalization and automation. As that percentage increases, eventually either society will collapse or something fundamental will have to change (such as implem…

This is a powerful point to ignore. The Great Recession has shown this trend might be establishing itself already; the percentage of people not participating in the workforce in any fashion spiked, hasn't recovered, and isn't showing promising signs of ever recovering. What a basic income will tend to do however is reduce the need for a minimum wage. Currently the minimum wage exists to solve a problem: People need t…

> You'll stand on a corner and flip a signboard around in the air for 20 bucks a day only if it's worth your time, and to buy the extra 6-pack or whatever you desire, but don't need to survive.

This is key here. Plenty of people are willing to work beyond survival for luxury goods.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#417

Post by agilebyte »

jerf wrote: post #392
btilly wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians. Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

Agree with you. How does one enforce people hopping borders from places that have no universal income policy? How do we deal with sovereign states that are allowed to set their own tax policy and thus legally become an offshore tax haven?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#418

Post by speeder »

sliverstorm wrote: post #384
speeder wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain?

The book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve Reading the summary at the top of the Wiki entry, it's already not surprising the book has been labeled racist. Any book that discusses race, inheritance, and socioeconomic class always gets called racist.

Actually this book sounds fascinating, must be a interesting read, agreeing with it or not.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#419

Post by dllthomas »

talmand wrote: post #377
dragontamer wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate profits are taxed, and then they are taxed again when they redistribute the dividends. Arguably, you get double-taxed if you own stocks.

The same thing happens with payroll taxes though, it's not an uncommon practice to tax money as it continuously changes hands. Your employer makes money and is taxed. Some of the resulting money is given to you as payroll and is taxed.

Paying employees is a business expense, so the money is not taxed as corporate profit. Paying dividends (outside of the context of a co-operative where you've pre-committed to paying certain dividends) is not considered a business expense and so the money is taxed as corporate profit before being distributed.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#420

Post by greedo »

wavefunction wrote: post #315
penguindev wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be far more worried about this sending a false prosperity signal that could exacerbate our already insane and unsustainable population levels. What's really depressing is that not a single comment here or on the article even mentions this. Why the hell should I pay even more and subsidize those who have more than two kids?

You shouldn't, of course we could limit couples to replacement rate of birth, if that's 2.1 for couples or 1.05 for individuals, they could sell a fraction or all of their "right to reproduce" to people who want to have 3 or more kids.

Sure. China loves the One Child policy. No horrible side effects at all.

Social engineering like this is fraught with huge risks.

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