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SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

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Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#411

Post by _ak »

rmc wrote: post #340
misnome wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about cases where you think it's just you and your friends joking between each other, and someone overhears, takes a picture of you and then publicly crucifies you online?

Well if you're at a conference with a publicised Code of Conduct that says no sexuality jokes, then... well... maybe don't do it there? They literally wrote it down.

Yes, and the situation on the conference was reported to the conference staff, the people involved were talked to, and the situation was resolved. Or so, it seems. Then Aria continued her public shaming, and the whole thing escalated.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#412

Post by jdileo »

ericabiz wrote: post #217
blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

>"proceeded to make a flippant, condescending remark about his wife"

I respectfully submit it's time to lighten up. This PC bullshit is both boringly predictable & enraging. Everyone both inside tech & out understands that wives routinely nag about their husbands & vice versa. Just because someone uses language you would not doesn't mean they deserve to be judged & boxed-up as "that guy". People are in motion, everyone's words & actions stemming from a unique set of ideas & experiences. What Adria did was absurd and in my view an abuse, her former employer obviously felt the same.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#413

Post by cheald »

JohnBooty wrote: post #395
rdtsc wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech Thank you for speaking up. I imagine this is not the easiest time to do so. > This doesn't portray women as badly as it portrays our entire tech culture badly. With such a large audience there will always be extreme responses on either side. There will (and have been) DDoS attacks, personal phone calls etc. I don't think those represent the community as much as it rep…

> She claims jokes were offending, she then posts > racists and penis jokes on her twitter account. > Not only does it smell of hypocrisy it smells of > maliciousness. Wow, so if your mother (or sister, or girlfriend, or wife, or daughter) has ever made an off-color joke in her life, that gives any man in the world the right to discuss penises with her in person? I mean, wow. That's what you're getting at. Twitter ha…

The difference here is that the jokes/comments were not made to her. She overheard them in the context of a semi-private conversation between two people, and took umbrage at them.

If they had come up and started making penis jokes to her, then it'd be a very different situation.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#414

Post by neilk »

[deleted] wrote: post #258
raganwald wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

[deleted]

In my opinion, it was a misjudgment, but think about what using Twitter is like.

Something ticked her off. She snapped a picture of it, as she had done dozens of times per day probably. She probably had no idea of the consequences. Even if you have 10,000 followers, most tweets are like that - you like something, snap a pic and share, you hate something, snap a pic and share.

I don't get the sense that she expected there to be such serious consequences. For her, tweeting might have been a reflex action. It wasn't a good decision, but let's be clear about how easy it is to lapse like that.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#415

Post by xauronx »

shardling wrote: post #156
blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

>I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Next to what? Adria didn't fire anyone...

Regardless of her position, what happened in this case, etc. It's just miserable to be around someone with this kind of over-reactionary over-sensitive attitude. I know people like that and it's just not nice to be around. Despite having the most equal relationship possible, my girlfriend goes to get herself a drink and I say "Hey, can you grab me one too while you're in there?" and our 'friend' freaks out like it's sexist. Noooo thank you. I won't be hanging out with you anymore.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#416

Post by jmagoon »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #349
jmagoon wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what's commonly known as the ignorance of privilege. It's white people saying, "Why can't I make jokes about black people, when black people can make jokes about me?" It demonstrates a total ignorance of what it means to be a discriminated against demographic.

I'm confused. Are you saying that just because a person is white they are not allowed to be offended by stuff and not allowed to question the validity of others who are offended?

Hmmm...'colorblindness' by a privileged group is a refusal to acknowledge the real inadequacies between social groups.

Basically, "I treat everyone the same--I don't see color" (or gender, or sexual orientation, etc.) is a luxury that only exists for some. For people discriminated against, they /have/ to see color, gender, etc., because it's a limiting condition of their social situation.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#417

Post by codesuela »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #188
salman89 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, and we as a society need to learn how to live in a world where a single tweet by an semi-influential figure can cause such a shit storm. How liable are people for actions resulting from a tweet? If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences?

> If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences? You're basically fucked.

You go to court an sue for defamation.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#418

Post by Ensorceled »

One thing I'm really trying to fathom here is that people really think the dongle joke, in this context, was sexist and not just mildly so.

Let's say a presenter put up a slide where Florida was pink and and somebody said to their buddy, "Ok, now it really looks like a penis."

Are large numbers of us really taking the side that this joke would be incredibly offensive, abusive and oppressive to women and should result in the pair being ejected from the conference.

Because that seems to be the stance many are taking. And I'm bewildered. To be clear, it's juvenile. I'd personally say "Are you guys 12? Cut it out."

Can we reserve our moral outrage for the people saying "That's so gay." or "She wants the 'D'" or "At least it's not black" in the same situation? You know, things that are actually offensive and problematic.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#419

Post by doktrin »

knowtheory wrote: post #399
doktrin wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are making a quantifiable assertion. If you'd really like to back up the claim, go grab some of the threads on this subject, and spider the account pages of the people posting to the threads. I don't see how plotting thread discussions on HN would even vaguely correlate to the Twitter abuse the GP was referring to.

zevyoura was asserting that the behavior seen on twitter is not representative of our community, and that those sentiments are isolated to a set of bad actors. My assertion is that there is a substantial number of people who share that same ill will here on hacker news. Most of the threads that have been posted to HN have been dog piles of hating on Adria Richards. So the question is are those people new and in fact…

I understand what you are trying to quantify, but I think you may be conflating sentiment.

zevyoura was responding directly to the GP's comment which made reference to use of the word "cunt" as well as threats / wishes of rape (and worse). The assertion being that the tech community was not responsible for some of the most hateful vitriol, none of which (AFAIK) was mirrored on HN.

Assuming that in fact all thread contributions were in opposition, it seems uncharitable to infer that simply because a HN contributor disagrees with Adria's actions that they are also somehow equivalent to the worst offenders on Twitter, FB and the like.

As zevyoura mentioned, there may be overlap - but IMHO this isn't as quantifiable an assertion as you make it out to be.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#420

Post by kalkin »

andrewguenther wrote: post #309
kalkin wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bunch of sexist loons attack somebody, and the right thing to do is fire her because it proves she isn't a good evangelist anymore? Seems to me that's awarding a really dangerous amount of power to sexist loons on the Internet. ... I suppose I should defend the "sexist loons" label. It would be one thing if people were attacking PlayHaven. They're the ones who made the decision to overreact to Adria's post and fire…

While none of us can say for sure what SendGrid's exact reasons were for firing her, I don't think the "sexist loons" are it. While representing her employer at a conference, she unnecessarily publicly shamed two developers. Like I've said before, none of this should have ever left Pycon. Then (and what I think was the nail in the coffin) she made her "my employer supports me" tweet. SendGrid had made no comment abou…

We don't know what SendGrid told her before she made that Tweet. Absent the firing, I'd have assumed they told her they supported her, and even now I think it's a reasonably likely possibility.

Beyond that, I'm torn between two responses. On the one hand, her post may have been an overreaction, but I don't think its indefensible. If you say something offensive in public, it's not a huge escalation for somebody to post on social media, "hey this guy said something offensive". It's the firing that's the big escalation, and that's all on PlayHaven - it's not like Adria even called for it, let alone had the power to enact it.

On the other hand, I think that's almost irrelevant, because it's naive to believe that SendGrid's firing decision was made on the merits of her actions, absent the context of all the Internet outrage. If they think she can't do her job anymore, it's because a bunch of people "in the demographic her position requires her to build relations with" get really bizarrely enraged when a woman asks them to change their behavior, and SendGrid was feeling the heat. It's not because she demonstrated such bad judgment that a reasonable person couldn't trust her decision-making ever again.

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