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I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

simonwillison.net

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Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

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What's an example of an indicator? Genuinely curious!

Insider tips from Google and AWS telling me that they run inference at a profit (though that was over a year ago now). Dario telling Dwarkesh three months ago that they have a margin on inference: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/dario-amodei-2?timestamp=3528.0

Are these sources not incentivized to say exactly this, regardless of whether it's true?

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#412
post #230

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I mean this case with AI-productivity fires itself back when we talk about GDP. The more AI causes productivity increases, the less and less number of workers will be needed. This will heat up the job market even more and bring salaries down. Net effect of this productivity increase: less consumption by the masses, even though you may be producing more good and much more efficiently. A third effect also comes into pl…

First of all, common people are not living paycheck to paycheck in the sense that they're at risk of not having money[0]. This is corporate content marketing that has entered the collective memory of people, not anything close to reality. Secondarily, reducing the cost of making a thing doesn't always mean you get less of a thing. For me, certainly, what happened is that I write way more software than I originally di…

Respectfully, that is truly ignorant. The vast majority of humans do not have any savings and would be in big trouble if regular income ceased. No paycheck no food. It’s wage slavery and it’s pervasive.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#413

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

Source on 200 million knowledge workers worldwide? My understanding is that it's just above 1 billion. I dont think a billion subscriptions at $1000/yr is out of the question but it might take a decade to get roiling

A billion subs at 1k a year????

I see a lot of out of touch takes here but this might take the cake

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#414

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

What value do the big model makers provide other than having a head start on gathering up humanity’s IP to train their proprietary models?

What’s their moat? Is it hoping for regulatory capture where scraping is made illegal the day after they finally finish scraping all human language?

It’s like OpenAI dammed the Colorado, and Anthropic dammed the Hudson, and now they’re both trying to sell us bottled water subscriptions at $100 a month. I don’t know how well the dam part of the analogy holds up, but the water part feels strong. Compiling models based on humanity’s written output feels like something no corporation should own.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#415

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

lol I’m spending max $50/month right now on a couple light subscriptions and my velocity is insane right now (full stack mobile app development) I’m leaning into it hard while these cheap plans still exist and building out a big platform that I can easily generate new apps from. Hoping by the time the rug pulls I can just go back to hand cobbling these apps together from the modules I’ve pumped out and never even consider giving these companies a massive portion of my monthly income

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#416
post #343

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What do you mean by the market is shrinking?

Literally revenue is collapsing in most sectors. Technology purchasing is declining. Service models are failing to turn a reasonable ROI. People stopped buying shit.

Wait do you have any numbers to back this up? Every number that I've seen contradicts this. Most sectors have positive revenue growth, even non tech sectors. Technology purchasing is increasing in every bucket (software, IT services, devices, communications, and of course DCs). Retail and food-service sales are up MoM and YoY. Personal consumption is up 0.2% in real terms. I assume by service models you're just talking about AI? I actually may agree with you but this is clearly not true for long if it is true today.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#417
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> That’s $2,180.16 worth of tokens for $200 So the author claims he's getting $2000 per month worth of frontier AI free of charge. Ok. If he's been doing that for 6 months that's $12k. What has this produced concretely? For $12k you can find a used car in decent condition. Heck for $1200 (his actual out-of-pocket spend) you get a brand new ebike! (on which you could put a pelican and make a photo of both if that's yo…

I've written a great deal of code - code that would have taken me years of work to produce without LLMs. (It's mostly open source, you're welcome to dig around in https://github.com/simonw and https://github.com/datasette if you like.) My time as an experienced software engineer is worth a lot of money - a whole lot more than $12,000 for the past six months.

> code that would have taken me years of work to produce without LLMs

As you might suspect, this is what I have an issue with. Without LLMs, isn't it possible or even likely that that code wouldn't have been written at all, and wouldn't have been missed? If LLMs are mostly used to produce throwaway prototypes then it's a stretch to say that's money well spent.

If indeed it let you advance your main product much faster then sure it's a different story. You're the judge of that. It's hard to see the impact from the consumer side; everything is still broken and no extraordinary app seems to be emerging. Maybe it's just a question of time. We'll see.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#418

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I'm sorry, what the feck does "value creation" mean here? I live in a place where people are so, insanely squeezed from every angle. Wages are stagnant, prices rocketing. Where is the money to pay for this value going to come from? No one I know feels richer than they did a decade back. I've not been able to meaningfully put up my prices for a decade. People are tired and stressed and scared, particularly scared of a…

A literal example is that I can use AI to file my taxes instead of spending a weekend and hundreds of dollars to have an accountant do it for me. It costs me like $5. that 245$ delta is the value of that output to me, as long as I am confident it is correct.

I think that to sum things up, we will have to wait until we can evaluate the cost of the mistakes. You could be lucky but you could also end up with a very negative output value in the longer time frame.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...we are already looking at dropping $100k on hardware to run local models... Just think how much further that $100K would have gone if the hardware market wasn't so screwed-up. Anecdote: I priced-out adding 1TB of RAM to a four node cluster a couple months ago. The cluster was purchased in fall of 2024 w/ 4 nodes, each with 256GB RAM. The nodes cost just over $14K apiece back in 2024 (entire box, not just the RAM…

> Dell wanted >$90K a couple months ago to add 256GB to each node. RAM is expensive, but not THAT expensive. I just bought 128Gb for about $5k for our build cluster (it's not even for AI, sigh). Even if you need larger-sized DIMM sticks, it's still going to be in the vicinity of ~15k tops.

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Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bottleneck has moved from producing a thing that works to knowing that the thing was the right thing to build. The more of the latter they can take on, the fewer knowledge workers are needed at all . So rather than 5% of every knowledge worker's salary going into tokens, 100% of the knowledge worker's total employment cost goes into tokens and you get a 20x productivity boost as a theoretical minimum across those…

>The bottleneck has moved from producing a thing that works to knowing that the thing was the right thing to build I would argue that that's been the case for quite some time before AI. As an example, what innovative amazing world-changing products have Google or Meta launched in the past decade with their very high numbers of very talented and highly-compensated engineers? The issue with most big tech companies are…

Yes, that exists at the wider business level. No question. I think what needs to get asked is are we talking about a bottleneck within the business as a whole, or a bottleneck within the scope of the knowledge work in question. Within software delivery there's a very clear shift when it's suddenly trivial to drop a 100kLoC plausible-looking PR into code review within an afternoon. Producing working code with a whole bunch of tests which make a very clear assertion that it does, in fact, work has had (if you're going that way) all the human-scale thinking time taken out of it, down to a rounding error. It still needs to be checked by a human, which was previously assumed to be a comparatively quick task in comparison to producing the thing. At least, it does where I am, and I don't think that's a silly position today at all.

If they can crack that latter review/spec-check/assurance step, checking that what was built was what was demanded of the problem such that we don't have humans in the loop at that step either, then the bottleneck moves again. Then I think it moves to requirements capture and to product development, but that might depend on the industry.

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