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What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

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Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#411

Post by sarchertech »

Aeolun wrote: post #390
sarchertech wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s definitely some of that. Relatively in most places in the US, it’s safer now than it has been since the 60s. But the relative comparison works over distance as well as time. For example in the city center 25 minutes from me the violent crime rate is about 1,000 per 100k people. In my suburb, it’s 80. The difference in property crime is even worse. Edit: 80/100k is also an overestimate because they included si…

Surely that’s just because people go to drink in the city center? 1 out of 1000 violent drunks sounds like a pretty reasonable ratio.

If that was the case, you wouldn’t expect property crime like motor vehicle theft to follow a similar trend, but it does. A very large chunk of the crime is gang related, and there is no gang violence in the suburb I live in.

Bars are also disbursed all over not just in the city center. We have bars here, and they produce essentially zero crime.

But even if all of the crime was alcohol related, all of the crime isn’t occurring inside bars.

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#412

Post by steveklabnik »

oersted wrote: post #261
macNchz wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most of the US, only single family detached houses are built (by law), which makes things spread out enough that people will want to drive. To address that, businesses are required to have a bunch of parking space. The end result of that is that, outside of a few places built before these rules took hold, living near amenities means living by parking lots and car traffic. The kind of street that "feels alive" is b…

Surely there could be small shops and restaurants dispersed at walking distances that don’t require parking space. I get that it is low density, but not that low, and there is some money to spend in such areas. They would do good business.

> Surely there could be small shops and restaurants dispersed at walking distances that don’t require parking space.

I know it sounds insane, but no, in many places, this is not possible.

My city, Austin, eliminated mandatory minimum parking in 2023, and was at the time the largest US city to do so https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/02/austin-minimum-parki...

I know of at least one business in my neighborhood that died due to these rules. They needed to expand to make the business work, but doing so would require that they buy even more land, in a fairly dense neighborhood, and turn it into parking.

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#413

Post by tstrimple »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #104
iamalizard wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't increase their visibility, obviously. It will make them think twice before going on that crosswalk. Maybe they'll wait for a car that slows down after they've taken only 1 step on the crosswalk, maybe they'll wait for their eyes to meet the driver's or to see the driver making a "go, go" sign with their hand. Governments should make roads safer but until they do, we should care for ourselves. Imagine a sidew…

> It won't increase their visibility, obviously. It will make them think twice before going on that crosswalk. Meanwhile in Shanghai, it tends to be a little too difficult to cross an entire street at once, so the way you cross is lane by lane, as if you were playing Frogger. (Except that you'll rest on lane dividers as opposed to right in the middle of a lane.) Pedestrians getting run over while doing this is not a…

Not a noticeable problem because they are Chinese and there are so many of them it doesn't matter if 4k die while trying to cross at crosswalks?

https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/how-dangerous-are-china...

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#414

Post by hylaride »

dfxm12 wrote: post #333
skinfaxi wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be surprised if loitering laws are even enforceable today. I can see trespassing if you're asked to leave and don't, but getting arrested for being in one place too long? Especially a public place like a park? I'd donate to that gofundme. Kids could learn something from first amendment auditors and just start filming themselves in public.

Parks have operating hours. Cities have noise ordinances, etc., to give Cops options for booking who they want for whatever they want. Cops don't necessarily care what the laws are, anyway. I've taken a ride in paddy wagons to a station before for hanging out in a playground because a neighbor said we were causing trouble. We were just talking. No, we weren't processed, but we were left to figure out our own way back…

The small rural Canadian town I grew up in (~2000 people) during the 1990s had a real estate agent that would call the cops if he saw any teenagers out after 9pm. He would literally lie to them, saying we were causing trouble if we were just walking to the convenience store. He was trying to keep the town "desirable" or something. This man fought anything that would keep teenagers occupied. Skate parks, benches, etc. My group would lay in the park during the dog days of summer just chatting and passing around a jug of orange juice, which he would tell the cops was spiked with vodka (which we did do, but never in the park).

Of course, we (as in the teens in general) probably fed into his paranoia - let's just say harassing the neighbourhood teenagers rarely ends well...

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#415

Post by dividefuel »

csomar wrote: post #266
grvdrm wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I don't see mentioned often in this discussion: what's a "long distance" Is there a formal measure or comprehensive view on that question? I lived in Manhattan (NYC). Walked a mile at a time (or more) without thinking about it. To/from work, in cold, in rain, etc. Now I'm in NYC 'burbs. The train is 1.1 miles from my house. I walk that distance on occasion but not often. My wife drives to/from train most da…

It’s more rewarding to walk 2-3km when there is a lot of things to see/do compared to walking 1km just to get to the station in a lonely walk. Just having/seeing people walk along/across you makes a world of difference.

I think walking VS driving is also about convenience.

In the example we're replying to, the shared suburban street has a marked median (implying medium traffic), minimal shoulder, and no sidewalk. While the houses and foliage are very nice, it feels a little unsafe to walk on. Presumably the train station has nice parking, so driving is quick and easy to do. Choosing to walk in this case is more for leisure or for exercise.

In the city though, driving is a whole other thing. Storing a car and finding parking just to go 1 mile is a huge pain: it's much simpler just to walk it. Walking in this case may be for leisure and exercise, but it's also for convenience.

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#416

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jolmg wrote: post #410
paulryanrogers wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hit with a belt as a child. The possibility nor the reality helped make me a better person. It actually has a negative effect on mental health

It might be like brakes. Some people abuse the brakes for their own self-satisfaction to e.g. brake-check others, others brake hard every time they need to come to a stop (e.g. intersections) because they don't know otherwise, and then others make it seem like the brakes don't even exist as the car glides without disturbance to the point that you might find it normal to have a drink from a open cup throughout. It's a…

Aren’t you just describing an EV with regen braking and one foot pedal driving? The brake pedal is just for emergencies.

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#417

Post by zabzonk »

brightball wrote: post #354
zabzonk wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far better to be out on your bike, exploring a wood, climbing trees, and possibly disturbing a very grumpy badger. The mall - breathing plastic fumes, looking at overpriced plastic toys, summoning your parents for your every whim. I know which I'd want for my kids, should I have any (too old & ill now).

We did that too, but the mall was also a good time. Since we couldn't drive, parents had to drop us off and then eventually come pick us up again.

> the mall was also a good time.

Oh well, not for me. I am/was a UK project manager who spent far too much time in the malls around Princeton NJ, where we were working. I had no choice because I don't drive, so I depended on bossing my lead developer about to get me places (sometimes worked) - and god how she could shop. I just prayed that the malls would have a bar - mostly not. But I would still hate malls for their horrible atmosphere.

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#419

Post by t-3 »

skinfaxi wrote: post #322
ryandrake wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point about the proliferation of the absurd “crime” of loitering, which apparently just means “existing somewhere without spending money.” I remember being a teen in the 80s and what we did every day would be considered “loitering” today. There’s not much else for kids to do outside the home besides loiter.

I would be surprised if loitering laws are even enforceable today. I can see trespassing if you're asked to leave and don't, but getting arrested for being in one place too long? Especially a public place like a park? I'd donate to that gofundme. Kids could learn something from first amendment auditors and just start filming themselves in public.

Very few children know enough and have the disposition to productively stand up to a cop (or any other seemingly legitimate authority) and try to defend their rights. Legally, whether they have the same rights as adults is also questionable.

Re: What we lost when we stopped letting kids leave the front yard

#420

Post by ryandrake »

cbondurant wrote: post #406
BurningFrog wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why were loitering laws introduced? I doubt it was purely a sadistic effort to ruin the lives of kids. My guess is that combatting gang crime was a major reason.

A reason I suspect (though, truly it is only a guess) is as a way to force people to spend money. Something akin to "either buy something or leave" to try and capture just that tiny bit of additional revenue.

"Buy something or leave" has become a kind of sinister, unwritten, yet overarching principle organizing and governing everyone's lives. Participation in the work-earn-spend economy has become less and less optional with each passing day.
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