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We need a federation of forges

blog.tangled.org

411–420 of 424 posts

Re: We need a federation of forges

#411
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you don't mean Tangled is an expert martial artist. Can you translate this to not-a-dev-but-uses-git?

oopsie; should have added links. `jj` is a wrapper around git and offers a much better dev-ex for managing changes. it has features like: - conflicts are first class citizens - `rebase` is the default mode; there is no need for an interactive rebase mode. - all descendant changes automatically rebase - a much more intuitive version of `git reflog`. in `jj`, we have `jj op log` - cheap branching: branches in `jj` are…

> `jj` is a wrapper around git and offers a much better dev-ex for managing changes.

You are mistaken there: Git is just one (of currently two) backend of the jj version control system. It’s far from being a wrapper.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#412

A federation of forges makes no sense if everything gets centralized again in the hands of the people operating Tangled (sure, someone else could run an alternative AppView, but then if you are only on the alternative you are invisible to anyone who is only on Tangled). https://gitgrasp.com/ fixes this.

> alternative AppView, but then if you are only on the alternative you are invisible to anyone who is only on Tangled

That’s misunderstanding the at protocol. There is a difference between a pds, where the data lives, and the appview. Tangled (the appview) happens to also provide a pds (they didn’t always do), but displays data which lives on other pds’s just as well.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the app is equivalent to an AP instance.

No because apps are decoupled many-to-many with hosting. Every app can display public data from every other app because the source of truth is outside both apps (in hosting). App owner can’t do bad things to your account other than banning you in their particular app. Other apps (even for same data) independently choose whether to show your data. So app owners are only in control over how your data is presented in th…

So in AT you can get banned from twitter but twitter mods can't ban you from reddit

And in AP you can get banned from twitter but twitter mods can't ban you from reddit (because you have a separate account for each)

Re: We need a federation of forges

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in your world, literally who isn't a dickhead? yourself, presumably? you must make a living somehow.

nah, I'm you're run-of-the mill dickhead, I'm afraid. righteous and principled but ignorant and overbearing. classic asshole, by nature. doing my best to be better every day, though. hoping the same for everyone else. as far as who isn't, the first names that come to mind are Fred Rogers - he seems like kind of the summit of what a soul can aspire to be. Randall Munroe seems like a pretty awesome guy. Haven't looked…

so, to be clear, you're not pissed at Tangled because they're building an open-source, freely available tool that helps people develop in public without demanding anything in return, but you are pissed at them because they took VC money and are using atproto, the latter of which in some way legitimizes crypto / billionaire techbros?

if so, you value ideology over pragmatism to the extent of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"

Re: We need a federation of forges

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nah, I'm you're run-of-the mill dickhead, I'm afraid. righteous and principled but ignorant and overbearing. classic asshole, by nature. doing my best to be better every day, though. hoping the same for everyone else. as far as who isn't, the first names that come to mind are Fred Rogers - he seems like kind of the summit of what a soul can aspire to be. Randall Munroe seems like a pretty awesome guy. Haven't looked…

so, to be clear, you're not pissed at Tangled because they're building an open-source, freely available tool that helps people develop in public without demanding anything in return, but you are pissed at them because they took VC money and are using atproto, the latter of which in some way legitimizes crypto / billionaire techbros? if so, you value ideology over pragmatism to the extent of "cutting off your nose to…

no, you seem to have me confused with someone else? I'm pissed because the CEO of a social media company said 'fuck the users' and then, when called out about it not only refused to apologize for that sentiment, but doubled down on being shitty because the users weren't paying her for it. that is, very simply, bad behavior. and I see no reason to reward it. since the tangled co-founder jumped in there with a +1, I see no reason to reward them.

the point is that whomever you are going to be doing business with (giving your data to) is eventually going to let their true colors show. happened with jack and twitter, happened with mark and facebook. if bsky is any good now - which is not a claim I'm making - it will eventually get worse because the ideology behind what they do is a toxic one that prioritizes growth and self-aggrandizement, or at the very least deprioritizes the value that individual users have to the success of an organization.

so I choose not to do business with people who are telegraphing, loudly, that one day they'll choose themselves over me, at my expense if I'll let them. and remind myself of that and let others know about it. I think I do it relatively fairly - by providing a balanced take on the practical features vs the abstract moralizing. simple as.

ETA: as far as spiting my own face, I...uh.. I still use git? I just use it elsewhere. not sure where I'm losing the practical battle here. there is no feature tangled provides that I miss out on by hosting my git elsewhere. and there are honestly a few features that I gain from doing so. so... if anyone's being impractical here, it's not me.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#416
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in expert in either but ATProto services (what they call AppViews) are substantially different from the fediverse because they rely on a shared relay instead of explicit federation. I'm conflicted about the costs of what is currently effectively global discovery, but it's not just another Mastodon. E: I think its funny multiple other people said the same thing in the time it took me to write this

Note a relay is a perf optimization and doesn’t have to be a single shared chokepoint. These days running a relay is fairly cheap (~$30/mo?), there’s maybe a dozen of them, and some apps don’t use one at all (instead relying on services like https://constellation.microcosm.blue/ for querying backlinks).

Then Twitter is also just a perf optimization for talking to the users directly.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#417
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VC money is absolutely not a means to an end, what is signals is that the company doesn't care about community and only cares about profit. I'm with the OP you're replying to. Taking VC is an albatross that means a large portion of devs will never trust you or use your services (outside of bleeding your funds dry). If this place truly cared about community they should have made a non-profit or some type of NGO, basic…

This kind of absolutism is crazy. People who are doing 90% of what we want them to do should be greatly celebrated and rewarded. Else we penalize idealistic people who are not perfect instead of penalizing the people who are actually doing the opposite of what we care about (ex. Autodesk). Do you want software to become as closed source as mechanical engineering? No! So let's celebrate people building software that's…

No, absolutism is absolutely needed or all you'll do is slightly slow down the shift of the overton window of enshittification.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#418
post #92
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VC money is absolutely not a means to an end, what is signals is that the company doesn't care about community and only cares about profit. I'm with the OP you're replying to. Taking VC is an albatross that means a large portion of devs will never trust you or use your services (outside of bleeding your funds dry). If this place truly cared about community they should have made a non-profit or some type of NGO, basic…

> the company doesn't care about community and only cares about profit. There are plenty of examples of VC funded companies that care about community & don't "only care about profit". Bluesky is a good one (literally a community / social platform). That's such a black & white take it baffles me. > Taking VC is an albatross that means a large portion of devs will never trust you or use your services A "large portion o…

> GitHub itself - was VC funded

And look where we are now. What sane person would got looking for an alternative only to sing up to the same bs again.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just call them what they are. Federations/networks, servers, repositories...

You got pretty much none of the names right. Tangle: the appview server of the tangled network. Knot: the git server that holds an arbitrary quantity of git repos. Spindle: CI servers/runners/nodes. Each one is the name of a component and the name for those components is pretty arbitrary.

> You got pretty much none of the names right.

That really proves his point though - the cute names are pretty much useless for an outsider.

Re: We need a federation of forges

#420
post #412

A federation of forges makes no sense if everything gets centralized again in the hands of the people operating Tangled (sure, someone else could run an alternative AppView, but then if you are only on the alternative you are invisible to anyone who is only on Tangled). https://gitgrasp.com/ fixes this.

> alternative AppView, but then if you are only on the alternative you are invisible to anyone who is only on Tangled That’s misunderstanding the at protocol. There is a difference between a pds, where the data lives, and the appview. Tangled (the appview) happens to also provide a pds (they didn’t always do), but displays data which lives on other pds’s just as well.

There is no misunderstanding - that difference is just irrelevant in practice.
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