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AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

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Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not talking patents. Code is 100% copyrightable. Code being copyrightable is the entire basis for open source licenses.

s/patent/copyright/ in my comment then. What part of a bog-standard HTTP API can be copyrighted? Parsing the POST request or processing it or shoving it to storage? I'm genuinely confused here and not just being an ass. There are unique algorithms for things like media compression etc, I understand copyrighting those. But for the vast majority of software, is there any realistic threat of hitting any copyrighted code…

Unlike patents, independent creation is a valid defense to copyright infringement.

Copyright is the literal expression of the idea. The identifier names, how the functions are broken up, which libraries are used etc…

Given more than a dozen lines or so, 2 people aren’t going to write the exact same code to solve the same problem. It might be equivalent code, but it’s not going to be the exact same.

  def copyright_warning(times) do
    for _ 
That code is copyright protected. I don’t have to do anything. I automatically own the copyright once I create it.

If you copy that you are infringing.

You could do something similar if you wanted. But if you copy that directly, you are infringing on my copyright.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the difference. In practice a human has to commit fraud to do this. But a human just using an LLM to generate code will do it accidentally. The difference is that regurgitation of training text is a documented failure mode of LLMs. And there’s no way for the human using it to be aware it’s happening.

You can not accidentally sign your name saying “this code is GPL compliant” If you can’t be sure, don’t sign.

I’m not gonna. A lot of other people now will.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine your a factory owner and you need a chemical delivered from across the country, but the chemical is dangerous and if the tanker truck drives faster than 50 miles per hour it has a 0.001% chance per mile of exploding. You hire an independent contractor and tell him that he can drive 60 miles per hour if he wants to but if it explodes he accepts responsibility. He does and it explodes killing 10 people. If the…

Cool analogy! Which has nothing to do with the topic in hand.

Want to bring something meaningful to the conversation?

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would the exceptions be only for humans? For starters because you can't own humans. If it's possible to launder copyrighted work through something which can be owned, then rich people get an advantage because they can own more of it. > so I think it's a bad idea to rely on intuition here Yep, that's why I said we should only concern ourselves with those which are internally consistent. If people want to apply r…

> For starters because you can't own humans. If it's possible to launder copyrighted work through something which can be owned, then rich people get an advantage because they can own more of it. If it's actually 'laundering' then it's invalid to begin with. If it's a proper new thing then how do rich people get an advantage? If anything AI code is cheap enough to even things out. > Yep, that's why I said we should on…

> If it's actually 'laundering' then it's invalid to begin with.

It's laundering in any reasonable meaning of the word. Whether it's legal according to the letter of the law is being decided.

Please differentiate morality and legality as well as intent and letter of the law.

> If anything AI code is cheap enough to even things out.

1) Do you think people have and will have access to the same models as large corporations internally, especially those who train LLMs themselves? Nothing stopping Google from excluding its own source code from the publicly available models but including it for internal models.

2) It's not just about the code, it's about the whole pipeline from nothing to a finished product and revenue stream. Did you know half the price of a new car is marketing? How much you can spend on ads, legal, market research, sales reps, etc. In some areas, especially B2B, nobody will even talk to you if you're a single guy in a shed, companies want stability, predictability and long term support.

3) More crudely, if you wanted to influence product selection or government elections, how many tokens could you afford for LLMs to influence online discussions, how many residential IPs could you afford, how much data could you buy about users to target each one specifically? Rich people will clearly have an advantage there.

Basically, if the cost of code goes towards zero, other factors will play a larger role.

> I think a lot of those people are consistent!

Only if they're consistently applying the rules to others but not themselves. Otherwise "permanent and total control over any idea they have" means they could never base anything on other people's ideas.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#415
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cannot be understated how religiously opposed many in the Linux community are to even a single AI assisted commit landing in the kernel no matter how well reviewed. Plenty see Torvalds as a traitor for this policy and will never contribute again if any clearly labeled AI generated code is actually allowed to merge.

Just remember that "reviewed" is not enough to not be considered public domain. It needs to be modified by a human. No amount of prompting counts, and you can only copyright the modified parts. Any license on "100% vibecoded" projects can be safely ignored. I expect litigations in a few years where people argue about how much they can steal and relicense "since it was vibecoded anyway".

if the code is legally public domain doesnt that make it gpl compatible? this would be a non issue for linux, the only thing that matters is its not stolen code that was originally under a different license thats more strict in a incompatible way

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all the productivity enhancement provided by an AI coding assistant is provided by circumventing the copyright laws, with the remaining enhancement being provided by the fact that it automates the search-copy-paste loop that you would do if you had direct access to the programs used during training. (Much of the apparent gain of the automatic search-copy-paste is wasted by skipping the review phase that would…

> The reason is that it is absolutely impossible to write any kind of program that is not a derivative of earlier programs. And that's why copyright has exceptions for humans. You're right copyright was the wrong tool for code but for the wrong reasons. It shouldn't be binary. And the law should protect all work, not just creative. Either workers would come to a mutual agreement how much each contributed or the court…

>> abusing the copyright laws and the patent laws have been the most significant blockers of technical progress during the last few decades > Can you give examples?

This is a subject so vast that giving examples requires a book-length text. IIRC at least one or two books have actually been written about this, but I am too lazy to search now for their titles.

I am more familiar with what happened in cryptography, where many algorithms have begun to be used only after the 20 years or more required for their patents to expire, while as long as patents remained valid, inferior solutions were used, wasting energy and computing time.

Regarding copyrights, I know best my own activity, but I am pretty certain that this anecdotal experience is representative for many programmers.

During the first decades of computer programming, until the seventies, there have been a lot of discussions about software reuse as the main factor that can improve programming productivity, and about which features of the programming languages and of the available programming tools can increase the amount of reuse, like modularity.

However all those discussions were naive, because later the amount of reuse has remained much lower than predicted, but the causes were not technical, but the copyright laws. Open-source programs have become the main weapon against the copyright laws, which enable the reuse of software nowadays.

However the value of software reuse has never been understood by the management of many companies. In decades of working as a programmer, I have wasted a lot of time with writing programs in such a manner so that whoever was my employer could claim the copyright for them.

There were plenty of opportunities when I could have used open-source programs, but I could not use them as there was someone who insisted that the product must contain "software IP" owned by the company. Therefore I had to waste time by rewriting something equivalent with what I could have used instantaneously, but different enough to be copyrightable.

There were also other cases that were even more annoying, when I had to waste time by rewriting programs that I had already written in the past, but in a different way so that there will be no copyright infringement. Some times the old programs were written when being employed elsewhere, other times they were programs written for myself, during my own time and on my own computers. In such cases, I could not use my own programs, as the employer would then claim copyright on them, so I would lose ownership and I would not be able to use them in the future, for my own needs.

There are many projects where I have wasted more time avoiding copyrights than solving problems. I believe that there must be many others who must have had similar experiences.

So I welcome the copyright-washing AI coding assistants, which can be employed successfully in such cases in order to avoid the wasteful duplication of work.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For starters because you can't own humans. If it's possible to launder copyrighted work through something which can be owned, then rich people get an advantage because they can own more of it. If it's actually 'laundering' then it's invalid to begin with. If it's a proper new thing then how do rich people get an advantage? If anything AI code is cheap enough to even things out. > Yep, that's why I said we should on…

> If it's actually 'laundering' then it's invalid to begin with. It's laundering in any reasonable meaning of the word. Whether it's legal according to the letter of the law is being decided. Please differentiate morality and legality as well as intent and letter of the law. > If anything AI code is cheap enough to even things out. 1) Do you think people have and will have access to the same models as large corporati…

It's silly to say a human writing a piece of software is laundering their knowledge of existing software, even if they're trying to make a competitor to a specific thing. Legally and morally.

It's just a silly to say it's laundering when a machine does it.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#418
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with this intuitively, I also just can't get past the argument that people said the same thing when we switched from everyone using ASM to C/Fortran etc.

>can't get past the argument that people said the same thing when we switched from everyone using ASM to C/Fortran that's a bad comparison for two reasons. One is that C is a transparent language that requires understanding of its underlying mechanics. Using C doesn't absolve you from understanding lower concepts and was never treated as such. The power of C comes squarely with a warning label that this is a double e…

Sure, a lot of people are incompetent. But the world generally works. Which is of course, the problem. The only time anything really gets questioned is when you start having a GitHub like 0 9s situation.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#419
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with this intuitively, I also just can't get past the argument that people said the same thing when we switched from everyone using ASM to C/Fortran etc.

There is a massive difference in outright transformation of something you created yourself vs a collage of snippets + some sauce based on stuff you did not write yourself. If all you did to use your AI was to train it exclusively on your own work product create during your lifetime I would have absolutely no problem with it, in fact in that case I would love to see copyright extended to the author. But in the present…

>they are to some degree lossy compressors

Is this even a controversial statement? Seems very clearly correct to me.

My original point wasn't worried about the copyright though. I'm completely ignoring it for now because I do agree it's a problem until Congress says something (lol) or courts do.

Re: AI assistance when contributing to the Linux kernel

#420
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with this intuitively, I also just can't get past the argument that people said the same thing when we switched from everyone using ASM to C/Fortran etc.

> " I also just can't get past the argument that people said the same thing when we switched from everyone using ASM to C/Fortran etc. " There was no "switch"; the transition took literally decades. Assembler and high level languages co-existed in the mainstream all the way until the 1990s because it was well understood that there was a trade off getting the best performance using assembler (e.g. DOOM's renderer in 1…

No one's saying 100% of code will be LLM generated starting in June this year either though (at least if you're not named Dario or Sam).
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