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Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

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Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#411

Post by physhster »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #136
physhster wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 30 makes no sense. It's easily in the hundred if you account for shifts and the specialized jobs required.

The number the developer gave in a press release was "20-30." I find that reasonable as a very large Facebook data center near me has a permanent staff of around 50. Keep in mind that these large DCs use contractors for the majority of the work, which unfortunately doesn't really help with employment because the contractors mostly come in from out of state (there is a HUGE temp labor market for traveling IT technicia…

You have no idea how much maintenance is required. Just replacing hard drives, not even counting server repairs, new servers installation, network infrastructure installation and maintenance, power distribution, generator engineering, water treatment etc etc

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#412

Post by physhster »

bombcar wrote: post #153
physhster wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 30 makes no sense. It's easily in the hundred if you account for shifts and the specialized jobs required.

Once it's built, it basically runs itself. You have a guard, some remote hands, maintenance, maybe additional security or two, times 4 for the various shifts. 30 sounds about right. Even 20 years ago the datacenters I worked with often had fewer employees onsite than "visitors" - because they rented out racks.

You're confusing colos and first-party data centers. A colo mostly relies on its customers for installs and maintenance. Google, MS, FB, Apple etc own the entire building so all the functions are local: server install and maintenance, network install and maintenance, generator maintenance, electricians, water treatment in some cases... That's very easily in the hundreds if not thousands for big sites.

Count the cars here: 36.242186561973, -95.32619746715035

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#413

Post by Shitty-kitty »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #194
bryanlarsen wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maine obviously wouldn't have a problem with that, this law indicates they want them somewhere other than Maine. Environmental regulations that are as good as a ban seem far preferable to an outright ban, IMO. There's a large segment of the population that see outright bans as oppressive but support environmental regulations.

>Environmental regulations that are as good as a ban seem far preferable to an outright ban, IMO. There's a large segment of the population that see outright bans as oppressive but support environmental regulations. So basically steal legitimacy from real environmentalists by applying their label to something that's not really motivated by environmentalism but can be construed that way? "They don't actually want what…

Unfortunately enviromental law has become a favorite tool of industry to stop, delay, increase costs to competition. Industry funded pretend enviriomentalist groups bringing up friviolous lawsuits has done much harm to the movement.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#414

Post by [deleted] »

jeffbee wrote: post #38
dpe82 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power is not the most expensive part of data center lifetime cost; especially these days when you're filling them with several billion dollars of nvidia chips. It's still an important consideration of course, but not the only one.

I don't know if that's really true. Given realistic life cycles of equipment (~10 years, not 3 as commonly believed) the operating power is going to be 75-80% of the TCO, or more.

[deleted]

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#415

Post by Shitty-kitty »

pj_mukh wrote: post #307
piker wrote: post #3

Such a law illustrates the beauty of federalism. Texas and other states can have them if they want them! Maine has not nearly as much space and much more natural beauty to protect [per square mile], so it can and maybe should have a different set of rules. That's cool.

This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Just NIMBY everything, NIMBY the power sources[1] [2], then complain about a lack of power so NIMBY any type of new industrial . Now do this for housing, new sources of water anything a person younger than 40 would need and you basically get a state full of retirees..and oh would you look at that! [3]. Now the question is, why wouldn't all states eventually do this w…

Maine's economy is based on tourism and rich people (which tend to be older) wanting to live (and spend their money) there. You got to consider things carefully about what you do to the states economy with eyeysores like power lines and electricity-generation to feed datacenters.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#416

Post by fc417fc802 »

km3r wrote: post #377
fc417fc802 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't the whole story. At least some of these new datacenters are gigawatt class. That's multiple sq km of solar. Water usage is also an issue. A continuous 1 gigawatt is enough to boil off 1.3 million liters per hour which over 24 hours equates to very roughly 90k residential users. If it isn't boiled but is instead returned lukewarm it will require many times that amount due to how large the heat of vaporizati…

What? The water is not getting boiled off. Datacenters, for the most part, have closed liquid loop cooling systems. Electricity goes in, hot air and bits come out.

The old datacenters had. I don't think anyone is air cooling (radiator or otherwise) a gigawatt. Convert 1.3 million liters per hour from boiled water to air and you get an absurd number.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#417

Post by TitaRusell »

pj_mukh wrote: post #396
throwaway-11-1 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do Yimby’s actually believe in democracy or that markets should basically make every decision? Honestly starting to get a little suspicious.

If the whole voting population came together and said we’d like to pay ourselves $100,000 in straight cash today by borrowing it from future generations. Should they be able to do it in the name of direct democracy? Blocking all future growth due to aesthetic reasons is 10x worse, atleast the $100,000 could be meaningfully spent now.

Yeah I'm not buying it.

Look I live in a leafy affluent area and there's just no way in hell a data center would ever be built here. There will be lawyers.

Maine is poor.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#418

Post by cucumber3732842 »

Shitty-kitty wrote: post #413
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Environmental regulations that are as good as a ban seem far preferable to an outright ban, IMO. There's a large segment of the population that see outright bans as oppressive but support environmental regulations. So basically steal legitimacy from real environmentalists by applying their label to something that's not really motivated by environmentalism but can be construed that way? "They don't actually want what…

Unfortunately enviromental law has become a favorite tool of industry to stop, delay, increase costs to competition. Industry funded pretend enviriomentalist groups bringing up friviolous lawsuits has done much harm to the movement.

And a tool of industry to make easy money. You pay off the right people and your "environmentally friendly" product that's 99% as bad as the other thing while performing 50% as well can become "technically not mandatory but you won't get shit approved without it". Or some competing solution will get nerf'd driving business to you.

In a particular state in the midwest. The regulator has adopted the policy of "no new septics". You have to do a mound system at great cost. No rule, no code, no performance standard, just an unofficial policy of "we don't approve those". I know someone who's got a textbook perfect property for a traditional septic. They don't care. The shit pump people are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's all so tiresome.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#419

Post by mapotofu »

seniorThrowaway wrote: post #6
piker wrote: post #3

Such a law illustrates the beauty of federalism. Texas and other states can have them if they want them! Maine has not nearly as much space and much more natural beauty to protect [per square mile], so it can and maybe should have a different set of rules. That's cool.

Don't know why people think Texas doesn't have natural beauty. It's a huge state.

By size there should be more. That’s why they feel that way. Maine is significantly more beautiful than Texas. The ugliest part of Maine probably still looks better than most of Texas. I can’t even think of an example of “ugly Maine”.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#420

Post by JuniperMesos »

culi wrote: post #322
pj_mukh wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism. Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”. Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.

Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"? C'mon. Be reasonable for a second. Or at the very least actually read past the title before commenting. This is actively seeking to reduce NIMBYism > As part of the moratorium, Maine’s Data Center Coordination Council would study and oversee the environmental impact and electricity bill increases datacenters often bring to local residents and “consider data-sharing requi…

> Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"?

Yes

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