Live data from Hacker News

AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

theguardian.com

411–420 of 427 posts

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a non excuse. I live near a military base, and there is a daycare, school, rec center, pub, ice rink, church, and grocery store, open to the public, and not managed by the military. All of it is on land owned by the military, but outside the wire. The fact that these facilities exist on military land near a base (which a hostile government would surely argue IS the base) does not mean that the people in those…

Technically the statutes of Rome forbid using human shields. A nation state bombing US mainland bases sounds rather implausible, although I certainly would prefer that civilian infrastructure to have a minimum distance to military targets, even in the US, even if only to set the right example to the rest of the world. I do believe there would be value in modernizing the statutes of Rome regarding human shields, which…

I don’t live in the US.

No one is using human shields. There are just non viable targets next to viable ones. Blowing up a school intentionally because you have bad intel or incompetent staff is tan unmitigated fuckup and war crime. We also don’t give two shits about “Roman statutes”. There is no moral obligation to attack a country that has schools near military facilities based on a dead empire from a couple millennia ago.

On closer reading, this is an insane take on a bunch of levels. Your username being a well known nazi isn’t a mistake is it?

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically the statutes of Rome forbid using human shields. A nation state bombing US mainland bases sounds rather implausible, although I certainly would prefer that civilian infrastructure to have a minimum distance to military targets, even in the US, even if only to set the right example to the rest of the world. I do believe there would be value in modernizing the statutes of Rome regarding human shields, which…

I don’t live in the US. No one is using human shields. There are just non viable targets next to viable ones. Blowing up a school intentionally because you have bad intel or incompetent staff is tan unmitigated fuckup and war crime. We also don’t give two shits about “Roman statutes”. There is no moral obligation to attack a country that has schools near military facilities based on a dead empire from a couple millen…

Who is "we" in:

> We also don’t give two shits about “Roman statutes”.

?

It doesn't improve credibility if you openly express disdain for that section of international law that describes human shields as war crimes, which defines the concept of human shields, and then proceed to dictate that nobody uses human shields. Are you claiming this section of law is superfluous because it never happens?

BTW, my user name refers to a well known frozen pizza brand.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At the US

So Iran kills untold innocent children and innocents but because they havent yet launched an attack on american soil(they absolutely could) its immoral to stop them from killing more children and innocents? Doesnt make sense to me. Thats before we even get to the major economic damage their terrorist network has caused. The US morally must just sit back while Iran funds and arms the group that routinely shuts down gl…

> So Iran kills untold innocent children and innocents but because they havent yet launched an attack on american soil(they absolutely could) its immoral to stop them from killing more children and innocents?

israel has killed even more "untold innocent children and innocents", so you should expect to continue finding no global sympathy or solidarity for them as they, an aggressor, initiate a war of choice against someone else.

By your logic, israel has greater causus belli against themselves than iran. Yet we don't see israel warring against itself. The only conclusion is that israel doesn't actually care about kids being killed, and started this war for totally different reasons.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#414
post #409
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have not presented any evidence, you're just claiming there is a consensus, and that it's foolproof. Please stop the posturing and produce something. As it is your post contains zero information content. Afaik, the cause of the explosion has not been conclusively shown by anyone, and it is still contested. But FA has presented the most detailed analysis of all. You're also painting with vey broad strokes, making…

> You have not presented any evidence, you're just claiming there is a consensus - US government (Biden administration): https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-has-high-confid... - Canadian government: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/20... - French government: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-france-intellige... - IDF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y70TjUKVYk - Human Righ…

Hamas and PIJ are ridiculous sources to use in this case, I will not use them.

Equally ridiculous is to use the IDF or the Biden admin as sources. They are also party to the war.

Using Canadian and French government sources is less ridiculous, but they are still aligned with Israel, and therefore have a motive to side with the IDF. HRW and Bellingcat are good sources on this front. The WSJ is an ok source.

Please show your work. You should open up what the sources actually say. Simply dumping documents on someone is not a good way to argue. You're making me do your work for you.

US govt source

- party to the war

- no analysis shared

Canadian govt

- no analysis shared

- state that evidence is inconclusive, but points to rocket from within Gaza

French govt (anonymous French official)

- state that evidence is inconclusive, but size points to rocket from within Gaza

IDF

- party to the war, unreliable source

- identifies the PIJ missiles are responsible, the same ones that FA showed were not

HRW

- extensive text, first serious source in your list

- argues that the fire damage is consistent with rocket fuel burning up

- notes that a misfire may be the cause of that

- argues that the size of the blast is inconsistent with the larger IDF bombs

- does not conclude anything, but draws partial conclusions that are consistent with a misfire

- notes that the IDF hit the same hospital three days earlier with a missile

- notes that the IDF was hitting targets near the hospital at the time of the explosion

WSJ

- Shows footage of a rocket exploding in the air, claims this is a misfired rocket that explodes in the air and falls in the hospital parking lot

- The NYT [2] shows that the videos of the rocket exploding in the air are unrelated

- The HRW source also seems to comment on these videos (they could be other similar videos, they don't identify them), saying they are unrelated Israeli interceptors

Bellingcat

- reports that an impact crater has been identified

- reports what the IDF has commented on it

- no conclusion

Let me add one source, for now, since this list is quite long.

NYT source [1] - discounts the video evidence used by the WSJ source (much like HRW)

- notes that the IDF hit the same hospital three days earlier with a missile

- notes that the IDF was hitting targets near the hospital at the time of the explosion

> And what conclusions would that be?

The evidence is inconclusive. Which FA also states. It is still unclear where the particular rocket that hit this hospital came from. Israel targeted and destroyed many other hospitals in Gaza during the genocide, so that is not unlikely. Rockets from Gaza do also misfire, and it is also possible that that was the cause, just not any of the rockets that have been identified. FA has also shown that the impact crater features are consistent with the rocket travelling from the direction of Israeli positions.

What is clear is that you are mischaracterizing your position as an "OSINT consensus". There is no consensus, and nobody who isn't the IDF has made a conclusive statement about who is at fault. Also claiming I use a narrow set of sources because I only cite the clearest one is simply mischaracterization. It's bad faith argument.

The point was that the particular claim that Israel made, the one about a PIJ rocket, has been discounted. Which was my original point. The IDF has lied through its teeth through all conflicts its been in (then later revised its statements quietly). About the death toll in Gaza. About the ambulance crew that was massacred. About not purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure. The IDF and the Israeli government lie about their acts of war constantly and cannot be trusted. The same is true for the US government.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hos...

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Iran has been waging war since the Islamic Revolution On who?

They've colonized the whole region with their proxies, from Lebanon to Yemen to Iraq, previously Syria which they attacked with Hezbollah to support the Russia-backed Assad. About 1 million dead people from all this proxy warfare. Lebanon in particular wants to be a normal liberal democracy but their proxy militia assassinates any politician who stands in their way.

Colonized? Are Hezbollah not Lebanese? Were assadists not Syrian? (assadists invited Hezbollah) And how did Hezbollah come to be?

I think you're simplifying quite a bit. And you're also omitting Israel and other near east countries or groups as a proxies of USA, simply by avoiding a clear and sensible non-discriminatory definition of what a proxy is.

Eg. USA's Israel "proxy" crucified (literally) a "Palestinian Christian poet, advocate of non-violence and PLO spokesman" in Lebanon and executed a random woman who stood in the way of their operation. This is one of hundreds a lot of the time political assasinations IL did all around the world.

Also Iraq attacked Iran during Iranian revolution in the past. You can hardly call Iraq a victim of Iranian proxy warfare.

You can't ignore history or the long-term USA and Russian meddling in the region.

Seems like significant subset of what you call proxies are locals who formed a group and tighter (Hezbollah) or very loose and inconsequential (Hamas) alliances with Iran, in response to either beligerent occupation/aggression or invasions by some other groups like Israel, Iraq, Saudis - basically in response to wars fought over land and resources.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t live in the US. No one is using human shields. There are just non viable targets next to viable ones. Blowing up a school intentionally because you have bad intel or incompetent staff is tan unmitigated fuckup and war crime. We also don’t give two shits about “Roman statutes”. There is no moral obligation to attack a country that has schools near military facilities based on a dead empire from a couple millen…

Who is "we" in: > We also don’t give two shits about “Roman statutes”. ? It doesn't improve credibility if you openly express disdain for that section of international law that describes human shields as war crimes, which defines the concept of human shields, and then proceed to dictate that nobody uses human shields. Are you claiming this section of law is superfluous because it never happens? BTW, my user name refe…

The well known food brand was run by a card carrying wafen-SS member name Oetker who used his influence with the party to get sweetheart deals to supply the Wehrmacht. It’s an odd choice.

I’m not expressing disdain for the part of international law that bans human shields. I’m saying that civilian infrastructure near military infrastructure is not that. The “Rome Statute” - the accepted name for the law you are calling the Roman Statutes - does not have anything in it about it being fair game to massacre civilians. The disgusting argument that these girls had it coming since they were being g used as human shields is bunk since they were specifically targeted by precision munitions intended only for the civilian target. The entire tragedy could have been avoided with the same military outcome by just not bombing the school.

I’m not going to get into the weeds on semantic details with someone who coincidentally uses a nazi username and claims a moral imperative to bomb countries for placing a school within an arbitrary radius of a defense facility.

Your takes are wholesale indefensible, regardless of any quibbles about details.

There is never a justification for intentionally bombing a grade school. Period.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "we" in: > We also don’t give two shits about “Roman statutes”. ? It doesn't improve credibility if you openly express disdain for that section of international law that describes human shields as war crimes, which defines the concept of human shields, and then proceed to dictate that nobody uses human shields. Are you claiming this section of law is superfluous because it never happens? BTW, my user name refe…

The well known food brand was run by a card carrying wafen-SS member name Oetker who used his influence with the party to get sweetheart deals to supply the Wehrmacht. It’s an odd choice. I’m not expressing disdain for the part of international law that bans human shields. I’m saying that civilian infrastructure near military infrastructure is not that. The “Rome Statute” - the accepted name for the law you are calli…

> There is never a justification for intentionally bombing a grade school. Period.

let me focus on this word "intentionally", intent.

When I take the ladder I hid somewhere else under the bridge, and climb in my secret homeless bum nest, I am taking that ladder with intent. So I know intent exists. When I intend thin gs I do them intentionally, and sometimes I don't intend things like accidentally knocking over someone else's glass of drink, then I know I didn't do it intentionally.

Whenever theres a conflict before the courts, and whenever the relevant laws refer to presence or absence of intent, there will be an interest for both the plaintiff and the defendant to make claims on intent: the plaintiff might claim the defendant did such and such with intent, while the defendant has an incentive to claim such and such happened without intent. People take risks, plaintiff took risks, defendant took risks. Often both are co-responsible for a sequence of events, the law (at least on paper) is not monocausal. It is important to be able to attribute faults with causal links to damages, but an even more important role of law is to align incentives such that all parties avoid ending up in these situations. The law serves more than remediation, it serves a prevention role!

I believe it is important to prevent tragic events like girls schools being bombed.

I simply believe it is more effective to prevent harm by focusing on provable facts at hand.

How can a judge verify if something happens with or without intent?

Suppose your loved one was on the Iran Air flight that was downed, do you really care if it was with or without intent? Your loved one is now gone. Wouldn't it be wiser to leave the world in a better place, and have intent-oriented language eliminated so that the international community can promise to act strongly and swiftly when a nation state violates certain intent-agnostic conditions. Keep the (war) crime criteria objective without reference to intent, and don't do reckless stuff which can result in downing civilian air craft (whether its Iran Air or the Dutch plane above Ukraine).

Don't do reckless stuff like have a military complex, then change one of the buildings into civilian use and not marking this change on places like OpenStreetMap.

At the very least a global international list of all childrens schools, universities, etc. And unconditional permission for the international community to use ground penetrating radar, acousting sounding etc to investigate claims of colocated military compounds. International community coffers that can only be used to investigate claimed colocations (human shields). A disincentivation mechanism to prevent malicious parties constantly calling wolf to drain this coffer to prevent investigation of themselves.

Why do people believe that we somehow already have the optimum of all possible laws? Do you sincerely believe no better system of laws can be designed that prevents most of these tragedies?

To be precise:

1. I used to work in a car factory

2. Somehow a conversation with colleagues turned to my diet

3. I told them I like to eat frozen pizza

4. They started calling me Doctor Oetker half the time, and "StreetFighter" the other half of the time.

5. Thats how I got a nickname.

Whats your story, apart from shooting down ideas on how to restore objectivity in international law, because any subjectivity will result in entities believing they can get away by playing the infinite "was too! was not! was too! was not!"-game on the topic of intent...

EDIT: also I just looked up more about the history of Dr. Oetker; and you seem to conflate a couple of things

you state:

> The well known food brand was run by a card carrying wafen-SS member name Oetker who used his influence with the party to get sweetheart deals to supply the Wehrmacht. It’s an odd choice.

But Oetker didn't run this company during the war, his stepfather did. On wikipedia I read he was an SS party member though, and organized support groups for SS members and other Nazi apologetism, which is disgusting indeed...

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#418
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China does these things to their own citizens, so really only better for those out of range.

That’s the whole point, though? US does it to everyone, including its citizens.

The governments are both pretty terrible, but China has been far more violent to it's own citizens in recent times than the US has. The recent non-citizen hunts and unwise involvement in foreign affairs notwithstanding, the US doesn't (currently) have a policy of ethnic cleansing and violating human rights on a massive scale on its own lands.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#419
post #23

"Three clicks convert a data point on the map into a formal detection and move it into a targeting pipeline. These targets then move through columns representing different decision-making processes and rules of engagement. The system recommends how to strike each target – which aircraft, drone or missile to use, which weapon to pair with it – what the military calls a “course of action”. The officer selects from the…

The US is a war at the behest of Israel and Israel would like the US to fight as it does.

There are very recent images from the current war of Israel, Israeli mothers commenting on the fact that their children schools have been taken over by the IDF. She walks past the playground and it’s full IDF trucks.

This is in a country that claims it’s legitimate to strike schools and hospitals because they’re being used as cover for the military. Yet what would the response be if Iran was to target is ready children?

In Israel, the double standard doesn’t exist because they see the people they’re fighting as less than fully human. The current administration in the US is moving America towards holding the same view because it’s being led by foreign policy experts, who are uniformly staunch Zionists, with a “Hebrew school“ level of understanding of the regions history.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#420
post #290

A similar situation happened a few weeks ago when the US/Israel started targeting Iranian police facilities. They bombed a public park in Tehran called "Police Park" because it has the name "Police" in it. It's a normal park. https://x.com/clashreport/status/2029574288253026510 https://x.com/tparsi/status/2029555364262228454 If you asked AI to "list the top 100 police facilities in Tehran", this location would appear…

Give me a source that says Police Park was hit. AFAICT while the place exists, this story was made up.

Not complaining about moderation, but rather making a point that the site is genuinely going downhill - HN downmodded asking for a source for a major event to -3. There's not a single mainstream news outlet on https://www.google.com/search?q=Police+Park+iran that points to this location being attacked.
Post reply on HN