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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#411

Post by briffle »

belorn wrote: post #290
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I am a bit confused by that comment. Are parents social responsible to prevent companies from selling alcohol/guns/cigarettes to minors? If a company set up shop in a school and sold those things to minors during school breaks, who has the social responsibility to stop that?

when I was a kid in the early 90's, my state (and many others) banned cigarette vending machines since there was no way to prevent them being used by minors, unless they were inside a bar, where minors were already not allowed.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#412

Post by basisword »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

>> In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web.

So anyone can walk into a shop and purchase these things unrestricted? It's not the responsibility of the seller too?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#413

Post by 1shooner »

Salgat wrote: post #318
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

This only works if I ban my child from having any friends since they all have unlimited mobile access to the internet.

Could your child not just call or text their friends? Or is the real expectation to not have to intervene at all about their preferred platform?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#414

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

robomartin wrote: post #343
lenerdenator wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, what are the parents to do beyond restricting things? You find out some creep has been talking to Junior; do you talk to your local police department, state agency, or to the feds? We've never properly acted upon reports of predators grooming children by investigating them, charging them, holding trials, and handing down sentences on any sort of large scale. There's a patchwork of LEOs that have to hand…

> The thing is, what are the parents to do beyond restricting things? Well, I can't speak for parents (as in all parents). I can, however, tell you what we did. When two of my kids were young we gave them iPods. The idea was to load a few fun educational applications (I had written and published around 10 at the time). Very soon they asked for Clash of Clans to play for a couple of hours on Saturdays. We said that wa…

This reads like something I'd find on /r/LinkedInLunatics, all the way down to the one-sentence/thought-per-line formatting.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#415

Post by KoolKat23 »

axus wrote: post #410
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

It's very easy to lock up alcohol/cigarettes, a child should never have access. Internet usage is more like broadcast media, a child should have regular access. The positives and negatives of Internet usage are more extreme than broadcast media but less than alcohol/guns. The majority of people lack the skills to properly censor Internet without hovering over the child's shoulder full-time as you would with a gun. Be…

Devices such as phones come with an option when you start the device asking simply is this for a child or an adult. Your router generally these days comes with a parental filter option on start up too. Heck we have chatgpt that can guide a parent through setting up a system if they want something more custom.

If people want to push, they should just push to make these set up options more ubiquitous, obvious and standardized. And perhaps fund some advertising for these features.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#416

Post by aidenn0 »

gmueckl wrote: post #301
aidenn0 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fuck man, I can even legally give my kids alcohol - I don't see why it's appropriate to enforce what content I allow them to see. In the USA it depends on the state. Federal guidelines for alcohol law does suggest exemptions for children drinking under the supervision of their parents, but that's not uniformly adopted. 19 states have no such exceptions, and in many of the remaining 31, restaurants may be banned fro…

You're assuming that this person is in the US. Alcohol is treated far more liberally in other places. For example, in some places it is legal for restaurants to serve alcohol to minors who are accompanied by a parent... Another thing: I fundamentally disagree with certain age rarings for kids content. Some explicit violence is rated OK for young audiences, but insert a swear word or a some skin and the age rating is…

Starting a comment with "In the USA..." is the exact opposite of assuming a person is in the US.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#417

Post by knallfrosch »

some_random wrote: post #279
julianozen wrote: post #235

There is missing a solution. Give our personal devices have the ability to verify our age and identity securely and store on device like they do our fingerprint or face data. Services that need access only verify it cryptographically. So my iPhone can confirm I’m over 21 for my DoorDash app in the same way it stores my biometric data. The challenge here is the adoption of these encryption services and whether compani…

The real problem with this is that the ultimate objective isn't age verification, it's complete de-anonymization. I think different groups want this for different reasons, but the simple reality is that minimizing the identify information transferred around is antithetical to their goals.

Google/Apple already know where you and your mistress live. In case you pay for any service, they've got your identity too. Ever had a single shipment confirmation to your address come to your mail? They know who you are.

The hardware providers already have the information. You only need to make them reveal it to 3rd parties.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#418

Post by reorder9695 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #124

> And the only way to prove that you checked is to keep the data indefinitely. This is a false premise already; the company can check the age (or have a third party like iDIN [0] do it), then set a marker "this person is 18+" and "we verified it using this method at this date". That should be enough. [0] https://www.idin.nl/en/

And how do they prove to me they (and no 3rd party providers) aren't actually storing the data? I simply don't trust companies telling me they won't store something, so to me the only acceptable option is the data to never leave my device.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#419

Post by fartfeatures »

axus wrote: post #410
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

It's very easy to lock up alcohol/cigarettes, a child should never have access. Internet usage is more like broadcast media, a child should have regular access. The positives and negatives of Internet usage are more extreme than broadcast media but less than alcohol/guns. The majority of people lack the skills to properly censor Internet without hovering over the child's shoulder full-time as you would with a gun. Be…

This is where Apple, Microsoft and Android need to step up. Indeed they already have in many ways with things being better than they used to be.

There needs to be a strict (as in MDM level) parental control system.

Furthermore there needs to be a "School Mode" which allows the devices to be used educationally but not as a distraction. This would work far better than a ban.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#420

Post by SoftTalker »

A lot of talk and no solutions. Exactly the reason we are where we are.

Liquor stores, bars, strip clubs, adult bookstores, or similar businesses don't let kids in. Movie theatres don't let a 10 year old in to an R-rated movie. The tech industry ignored their social responsibility to keep kids away from adult and age-inappropriate content. Now, they are facing legal requirements to do so. Tough for them, but they could have been more proactive.

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