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Proton spam and the AI consent problem

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Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#411

Post by kldg »

not to say this "should" be the solution, but does Proton not offer easy email filtering & automation (e.g. skip inbox, delete)?

I ask because I haven't yet bothered to implement it on a from-scratch email server I stood up a couple weeks ago (just kidding; I wanted to brag about SPF, DKIM, and DMARC test passes from Gmail with both inbound and outbound encryption). I can say from this experimentation and using Google's Postmaster tool, though, that emails being reported as spam by users is *very* serious; Google's threshold is 0.3%; if just 0.3% of users report your email as spam, it's considered a policy violation and your emails are likely to go to spam or have delivery refused outright. idk what Proton's policies are. (edit: by extension, this means enforcing authorization of users is very serious; if someone abuses the service as an open relay, your whole domain is toast)

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#412

Post by tmarice »

chrisjj wrote: post #393
tmarice wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do elaborate.

"WARNING: Fastmail Masked Email insecurity" https://www.emaildiscussions.com/showthread.php?t=81287

One concrete vulnerability is mentioned in a linked thread and described here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37791500

I have created a ticket with the Fastmail support asking them more details about the vulnerability you mention in your thread, I’m curious to see their response.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#413

Post by tingling168 »

utopman wrote: post #384

Maybe it is just me, but : these emails are spam. Marking them as spam should be easy in a common email box nowdays. Marking these undesired emails as spam lowers email sender reputation, then finally gives real insight to the spamer soon or later. Meanwhile you have no more emails from them. This is unperfect because of ressource waste and the underlaying unsolved law compliance of these services. But at least you g…

Lowers sender reputation with who? Proton is sending emails to Proton mailboxes. Presumably their own emails bypass any "reputation" algorithms.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#414

Post by chrisjj »

tmarice wrote: post #412
chrisjj wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"WARNING: Fastmail Masked Email insecurity" https://www.emaildiscussions.com/showthread.php?t=81287

One concrete vulnerability is mentioned in a linked thread and described here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37791500 I have created a ticket with the Fastmail support asking them more details about the vulnerability you mention in your thread, I’m curious to see their response.

There FM said:

> When forwarding an email as an attachment and later checking the headers of the attached email, I could not find the X-resolved-to header

this is odd, no? This header field should remain.

And regarding that FM Privacy First declaration, this is now 404.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#415

Post by tmarice »

chrisjj wrote: post #414
tmarice wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One concrete vulnerability is mentioned in a linked thread and described here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37791500 I have created a ticket with the Fastmail support asking them more details about the vulnerability you mention in your thread, I’m curious to see their response.

There FM said: > When forwarding an email as an attachment and later checking the headers of the attached email, I could not find the X-resolved-to header this is odd, no? This header field should remain. And regarding that FM Privacy First declaration, this is now 404.

Well they still claim it is impossible to connect different masked emails together. If you as a sender can reliably determine the target email address, then that claim is untrue as well.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#416

Post by philipallstar »

janalsncm wrote: post #298
kelseyfrog wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you get a machine to have values? The short answer is a reward function. The long answer is the alignment problem. Of course, everything in the middle is what matters. Explicitly defined reward functions are complete, but not consistent. Data defined rewards are potentially consistent but incomplete. It's not a solvable problem form machines but equally likewise for humans. Still we practice, improve and mi…

Well, it’s pretty clear to me that the current reward function of profit maximization has a lot of down sides that aren’t sufficiently taken into account.

The only thing worse than it is anything else-maximisation.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#417

Post by aprentic »

vee-kay wrote: post #344
BafS wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for the famous quote "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin Edit: format

I will respond to a quote with another famous quote: “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." The only ways to prevent terror attacks is by either going deep undercover into terror organisations, or by doing surveillance and investigation on suspected terror links.

If we're comparing quotes, I think Ben Franklin carries more weight the Sam Atkinson.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#418

Post by aprentic »

vee-kay wrote: post #364
bigyabai wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it was found that terrorists and perverts were using it for terror communications and digital sexual abuse. Lol, nondescript "terrorists and perverts" are the laughingstock of Western politics. Eyes roll whenever someone justifies drastic action on vague terrorism/perversion accusations: https://youtu.be/ud9zBKJJQe4 My bigger concern is Modi's international reputation for exacerbating crime statistics to ma…

People living in glass houses should not throw stones on others. I am going to use your own words to show you the mirror now.. Your America and its democratically-voted (even if we can call gerrymandering such) orange dictator have become the "laughingstock of Western politics". The "war on terror" excuse to do wars for oil, was coined by "Western politic(ian)s", "exacerbating" to "manufacture consent for authoritari…

I think you're missing the point. People are distrustful of governments and want to lock ANY governments out of ALL email.

They're not defending terrorism. They just don't believe that fighting terrorism is a good enough excuse to give up privacy.

They're not being hypocritical because they hold exactly that same view about the US government.

You may want governments to be able to read emails but for the vast majority of HN, strong privacy guarantees are a feature, not a bug.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#419

Post by margalabargala »

amatecha wrote: post #305
chc4 wrote: post #7

I saw a Mastodon tweet a while ago, which went something like: Do tech companies understand consent?: - [ ] Yes - [ ] Ask me again in a few days

I like to frame it like this: "ask me later" is rape culture. It promotes and reinforces a culture of never taking "no" for an answer, and pushing one's agenda/intent regardless of the preference/consent of the other party/parties.

> "ask me later" is rape culture

I see the point you're making but this sort of hyperbole has a tendency to turn people away from whatever point you're trying to make unless they already agree with you.

Re: Proton spam and the AI consent problem

#420

Post by margalabargala »

vee-kay wrote: post #345
matheusmoreira wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Government scrutiny" ? What a bunch of bullshit. If anything this enhances Proton's reputation. If so called "terrorists and perverts" trust it to the point they rely on it for their own security, then it's worth serious consideration. Nobody wants to use cryptography that some indian government can subvert.

Next time there is a mass shooting or terrorist bomb blast in your neighborhood, I hope you can look at a poster of Proton VPN on your bedroom wall, and feel safe. And then when you find out the police are going door to door to investigate the terror attack, you should start distributing printouts of an ad of Proton VPN urging locals on how to evade police/government scrutiny via Proton VPN. See how that works out fo…

> You will be arrested as a terror sympathiser.

I'm not sure where you live but in most of the world you will not in fact be arrested as a terrorist sympathizer for advertising VPNs.

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