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IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

johnmaguire.me

411–420 of 606 posts

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#411
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if I think back to my 30 years of IT, environments with NAT end up with lazy engineering from systems and application folks. It doesn't provide an environment that forces folks to understand their problems holistically. Thus, relying on perimeter firewalling and NAT as a large catch all. It's a bad security practice imo

The correct way is hard. You either have to manage firewalls on each host, or your switches need to have firewalls (I assume that’s a thing?). Hosts on the same subnet never hit layer 3 so IP-based firewalls don’t see them. You either need very static infrastructure so you can hard-code firewalls on the hosts, or you need a system to dynamically manage the firewalls on each host, or an SDN that can sanely manage laye…

That's why I like mesh overlay networks (things like Tailscale, Nebula, etc.). You can largely set host firewalls to deny all, and access services over the overlay network which is software defined and more easily managed and deployed at scale.

It doesn't solve all problems, but its a good start, and modern MDMs & Group Policy (on the Windows side) make managing host firewalls easy enough.

It doesn't solve your self-service problem, though I'd argue self-service when it comes to host firewalls or otherwise shouldn't be a thing anyway.

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#412

It's scary how much of this thread of supposed hackers comes from people who clearly don't understand the difference between a NAT and a firewall. NAT is not for security, it does not provide security. It is often bundled with a firewall. The firewall provides security. Firewall=\=NAT

It's scary how much of this thread comes from people who can't imagine a use for keeping internal traffic internal. in ipv4, if my laptop tries to use a printer with a public ipv4 address, that raises alarms. in ipv6, if my laptop tries to use a printer with an ipv6 address... its not about the firewall. there's just a lot of extra attack vectors without a nat.

> its not about the firewall. there's just a lot of extra attack vectors without a nat.

Not if your firewall is dropping packets. It doesn't matter if your internal network has routable public IPs or not.

Apple used to have all (most?) workstations on publicly routable IPs since they jumped on the A class networks early.

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#413
post #93
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty weird threat model. Like, yeah commands you run on your machine can expose information about that machine.

Especially as if someone is able to capture ifconfig data, they can probably send a curl request to a malicious web server and expose the NAT IP as well.

Just because you can think of scenarios where the IPv4 setup doesn't make a different doesn't discount that there are scenarios where it does.

Someone being able to observer some state is a different model from someone being able to perform actions on the system and the former has many more realistic scenarios in addition to the ones of the latter.

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#414
post #361
post #294

Before you engage in discussions, may I suggest to look into RFC 4787, especially section 5 about filtering behaviors of NAT: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4787#section-5 Several things can be correct at the same time: * NAT is not a firewall * NAT can still filter traffic (and practically always does) * NAT can hence still provide security features * The real world often does not care about original defin…

One more important thing to note: If you really feel you must have NAT, there is IPv6 NAT. Unlike IPv4 NAT, V6 affords enough address space that IPv6 NAT can do 1:1 IP:IP mapping between internal and external. This eliminates entire classes of issues around port exhaustion and port remapping and allows P2P applications to work fine. P2P NAT traversal with simple 1:1 NAT has a nearly 100% success rate on the first att…

> V6 affords enough address space that IPv6 NAT can do 1:1 IP:IP mapping between internal and external.

That's the very thing those who consider IPv4 NAT to be a desirable feature don't want.

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the second paragraph of the (rather short) comment you're replying to? In most residential scenarios you literally can't turn off NAT and still have things work. Either you are running NAT or you are not connected. Meanwhile the same ISP is (typically) happy to hand out unlimited globally routable IPv6 addresses to you. I agree though, being able to depend on a safe default deny configuration would…

> But that's getting rather off topic. The dispute was about whether or not NAT of IPv4 is of reasonable benefit to end user security in practice, not about whether or not typical IPv6 equipment provides a suitable alternative. And, my argument, is that the only substantial difference is the action of a netfilter rule being MASQUERADE instead of ALLOW. This is what literally everyone here, including yourself, continu…

> Dynamic source NAT is literally a set of stateful firewall rules that have an action to modify src_ip and src_port in a packet header, and add the mapping to a connecting tracking table so that return packets can be identified and then mapped on the way back.

Yes, and that _provides security_. Thus NAT provides security. You can say "well really that's a stateful firewall providing security because that's how you implement NAT" and you would be technically correct but rather missing the point that turning NAT on has provided the user with security benefits thus being forced to turn it on is preventing a less secure configuration. Thus in common parlance, IPv4 is more secure because of NAT.

I will acknowledge that NAT is not the only player here. In a world that wasn't suffering from address exhaustion ISPs wouldn't have any particular reason to force NAT on their customers thus there would be nothing stopping you from turning it off. In that scenario consumer hardware could well ship with less secure defaults (ie NAT disabled, stateful firewall disabled). So I suppose it would not be unreasonable to observe that really it is usage of IPv4 that is providing (or rather forcing) the security here due to address exhaustion. But at the end of the day the mechanism providing that security is NAT thus being forced to use NAT is increasing security.

Suppose there were vehicles that handled buckling your seatbelt for you and those that were manual (as they are today). Someone says "auto seatbelts improve safety" and someone else objects "actually it's wearing the seatbelt that improves safety, both auto and manual are themselves equivalent". That's technically correct but (as technicalities tend to go) entirely misses the point. Owning a car with an auto seatbelt means you will be forced to wear your seatbelt at all times thus you will statistically be safer because for whatever reason the people in this analogy are pretty bad about bothering to put on their seatbelts when left to their own devices.

> in fact, there are ways to implement SNAT that do not properly validate that traffic is coming from an established connection; which, ironically, we routinely rely on to make things like STUN/TURN work!

There are ways to bypass the physical lock on my front door. Nonetheless I believe locking my deadbolt increases my physical security at least somewhat, even if not by as much as I'd like to imagine it does.

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#416
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardest to attack: fcab:cdef:1234:5678:9abc:def0:1234:5678 The whole point is that your devices on the inside of your network can't be routed to at all.

It's the same difficulty to attack in all 3 cases: hack the internet firewall, which the only point providing connectivity between both internal and external addresses regardless of what the address itself is. You don't need to change the prefix to prevent an address from being routed to from the internet, but you do need a firewall if you want an address to be securely reachable from the internet. If you don't want…

Not true, 2001:1868:209:FFFD:0013:50FF:FE12:3456 provides some amount of geographic information about the target that the other addresses do not. No firewall is going to protect you from that. Of course that is only going to matter in the specific scenario where your internal IP is leaked but the attacker has not other way of getting your external IP.

Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#417
post #160

For those of you with this handy technology, the mobile phone, in the United States: you have an IPv6 address without NAT. Some of you even exist on a network using 464XLAT to tunnel IPv4 in IPV6, because it's a pure IPV6 network (T-Mobile). These mobile phone providers do not let the gazillion consumer smartphones act as servers for obvious reasons. This is all to underscore the author's point: NAT may necessitate s…

What about hotspotting? Do the client pc's get the same IPv6 address as the mobile phone?

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Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the obvious reasons? (I'm not being flippant here -- I'm genuinely interested in what arguments people have to not allow servers on that network)

The most common use case for mobile data servers is probably pwned cheap/old phones forming DDoS swarms. Pure P2P over internet is very rare on mobile, no sense not blocking ingress from the perspective of ISPs.

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Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#419
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the real world everyone is also running UPnP, so NAT is also one misconfiguration away from exposing something publicly. In the real world your ISP might enable IPv6 one day and suddenly you do have a public address. Relying on NAT is a bad idea because it's less explicit, a firewall is saying you only want to allow these things through, of course nothing is perfect, you can mess up, but NAT is just less cl…

UPnP won't expose my SMB to the world on its own. For that you'd need an attacker already inside the NAT. So already on that side of the hatchway.

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Re: IPv6 is not insecure because it lacks a NAT

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dynamic DNS and port forwarding work fine if you really do want to run a server from your residential IPv4 connection. I've done it many times.

Until you run into CGNAT...

Sure, but American residential ISPs don't run with that, probably for this reason.
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