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Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

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Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#411

Post by DeathArrow »

Fiveplus wrote: post #36
alex43578 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the smaller die aspect more valuable early in the node’s maturity, where defects are less punishing?

That is the traditional textbook yield curve logic, if I'm not wrong? Smaller area = higher probability of a surviving die on a dirty wafer. But I wonder if the sheer margin on AI silicon basically breaks that rule? If Nvidia can sell a reticle-sized package for 25k-30k USD, they might be perfectly happy paying for a wafer that only yields 30-40% good dies. Apple OTOH operates at consumer electronics price points. Th…

Are Apple's profit margins lower than Nvidia's?

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#412

Post by ksec »

Aurornis wrote: post #215
anoojb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's say TMSC reciprocated Apple's consistency as a customer by giving them preferential treatment for capacity. It's good business after all. However, everyone knows that good faith reciprocity at that scale is not rewarded. Apple is ruthless. There are probably thousands of untold stories of how hard Apple has hammered it's suppliers over the years. While Apple has good consumer brand loyalty, they arguably tre…

At this scale and volume, it's not really about good faith. Changing fabs is non-trivial. If they pushed Apple to a point where they had to find an alternative (which is another story) and Apple did switch, they would have to work extra hard to get them back in the future. Apple wouldn't want to invest twice in changing back and forth. On the other hand, TSMC knows that changing fabs is not really an option and Apple…

I think this misses a key point. TSMC is leading edge. When Apple switched they were leading edge for pure play, but not far ahead of Samsung and certainly behind Intel. Now not only TSMC is the best, it is also the largest. Which means Apple don't have a choice.

It the old days the leverage was that without Apple, no one is willing to pay for leading edge foundry development, at least not enough money to make it so compared to Apple. Now it is different. The demands for AI meant plenty of money to go around. And Nvidia is the one to beat, not Apple any more. The good thing for Apple is that as long as Nvidia continues to grow, their order can be spilt between them. No more relying on single vendor to pus.

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#413

Post by bogdan »

signatoremo wrote: post #393
bigyabai wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel still hasn't proven that they've got the whole EUVL thing figured out. The best Intel chips you can buy right now use TSMC chiplets on the die.

Incorrect. The best Intel chip you can get is Panther Lake which is made on Intel 18A node, available globally at the end of this month. Intel has already used EUV machines in Intel 7 and Intel 3 nodes, for the last few years. https://newsroom.intel.com/client-computing/ces-2026-intel-c...

> available globally at the end of this month

So it's not available yet then?

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#414

Post by KeplerBoy »

_the_inflator wrote: post #236
roughly wrote: post #92

This article repeatedly cites revenue growth numbers as an indicator of Nvidia and Apple’s relative health, which is a very particular way of looking at things. By way of another one, Apple had $416Bn in revenue, which was a 6% increase from the prior year, or about $25Bn, or about all of Nvidia’s revenue in 2023. Apple’s had slow growth in the last 4 years following a big bump during the early pandemic; their 5 year…

I agree. People confuse relative for absolute numbers. And ironically Apple acts like being a small contender the moment they feel some heat after a decade of relatively easy wins everywhere it seemed. So finally there is a company that gives Apple some much needed heat. That’s why I in absolute terms side with NVIDIA, the small contender in this case. PS: I had one key moment in my career when I was at Google and a…

Did google ever ship a billion units of any hardware? Can't think of anything substantial.

Apple hit 3 billion iphones in mid 2025.

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#415

Post by KeplerBoy »

shuckles wrote: post #358
zvorygin wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get into large scale manufacturing and production? Was it a career switch? Downsides? It too fascinates me. Any book recommendations?

It’s also strange because I highly doubt Google has manufactured a billion physical units of anything. Most of their consumer hardware is designed and built by partners, including Pixel.

Even all pixel and nexus models combined must be far off the billion. Apple just hit 3 billion iphones last year.

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#416

Post by saagarjha »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #361
kalleboo wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are they switching from Sony to Samsung for custom camera sensors for the next iPhone? Why do they keep using Samsung for their customized screens despite LG and Chinese competitors being competitive?

Does Apple spend R&D on iPhone screens like they do Apple Silicon? What's that got to do with what we're talking about regarding iPhone's core IP (Apple's own chip, the most important IP from Apple)?

Apple has run micro LED development for several years

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#417

Post by dwaite »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #142
anoojb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's say TMSC reciprocated Apple's consistency as a customer by giving them preferential treatment for capacity. It's good business after all. However, everyone knows that good faith reciprocity at that scale is not rewarded. Apple is ruthless. There are probably thousands of untold stories of how hard Apple has hammered it's suppliers over the years. While Apple has good consumer brand loyalty, they arguably tre…

> they arguably treat their suppliers relatively poorly compared to the Gold standard like Costco. I’m not saying you’re wrong but you’re previous paragraph sounding like you were wondering if it was the case vs. here you’re saying it’s known. Is this all true? Do they have a reputation for hammering their suppliers?

I imagine it is like becoming a supplier for McDonalds.

The penalties for not delivering on timelines and production goals, and the scale being requested can mean substantial changes to your business. I remember a friend whose company was in talks with Apple telling me that there was some sense of relief when the deal fell through, just because of how much stress and risk and change the deal would entail.

However, a missing component could put tens of billions of dollars of revenue on the line for Apple. It is easier to say that any supplier Apple picks has to then quickly grow to the scale and process needed - and failing to do that successfully could very well be a fatal slip for the supplier.

Even in the iPod days, Apple often would invest in building out the additional capacity (factories) to meet their projected demand, and have a period of exclusivity as well. This meant that as MP3 player demand scaled up, they also wound up locking up production for the micro HDD and flash ram that competitors would need.

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#418

Post by davedx »

bombcar wrote: post #117
roughly wrote: post #92

This article repeatedly cites revenue growth numbers as an indicator of Nvidia and Apple’s relative health, which is a very particular way of looking at things. By way of another one, Apple had $416Bn in revenue, which was a 6% increase from the prior year, or about $25Bn, or about all of Nvidia’s revenue in 2023. Apple’s had slow growth in the last 4 years following a big bump during the early pandemic; their 5 year…

US tech companies aren’t built to be like 3M is/was and able to have their hands in infinite pies. The giant conglomerates in Asia seem more able to do it. Google has somewhat tried but then famously kills most everything even things that could be successful if smaller businesses.

Think Google has done a pretty good job at that actually! Consider their various enterprises that weren't killed:

* Search/ads

* YouTube

* Android/Play, Chrome, Maps

* Google Cloud, Workspace

* Pixel, Nest, Fitbit

* Waymo, DeepMind

* Google fiber

They're not a conglomerate like Alibaba but they're far from a one-trick pony, either :)

Re: Apple is fighting for TSMC capacity as Nvidia takes center stage

#420

Post by lukan »

mr_toad wrote: post #334
lukan wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wasn't the reason they split with Samsung because they copied the iphone in the perspective of Jobs (to which he reacted with thermonuclear threats)? They did had the expertise building it after all. What would happen, if TSMC now would build a M1 clone? I doubt this is a way anyone wants to go, but it seems a implied threat to me that is calculated in.

If Samsung (or any other fab) were to make Apple chips they wouldn’t learn anything that a good microscope couldn’t already tell them. Samsung still makes the displays and the cameras for most iPhones. They continued to do business even while engaged in legal action. That they are still competitors wont stop them doing business when it suits them. Business doesn’t care about pride or loyalty; only money.

I believe just locking at a chip, does not enable you to to make such a chip, otherwise china would not be behind.

TSMC already makes them in their labs. They could tweak a few things, claim it is novel and just sell to the competition. (Apple would fight back of course with all they have and TSMC reputation would take damage)

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