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EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

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Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#411

Post by EasyMark »

squigz wrote: post #108
a022311 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing substantial has happened to the three texts since last week, it's just that "chat control is back" drives traffic and "Council preparatory body formally approves draft position that got consensus previously but didn't formally get passed because people were fighting over Ukraine stuff for too long" doesn't. While I agree with your point, it's still crucial to raise awareness of Europe's actions. It may be a…

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

Nah the first reaction of anyone who cherishes democracy which by necessity should be skeptical of entrenched and liberty abusing policies in the name of "safety" should be "what? are you crazy? what a stupid idea" for any of these encryption banning scams.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#412

Post by EasyMark »

LexiMax wrote: post #228
squigz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

While I disagree with your position for the reasons already given by others, it's quite ironic that in this thread about government censorship that your opinion is in the process of being censored by other HN users.

unless someone tells you to "shutup and get off hackernews or I'll see what I can do about getting to ban you" then they aren't being censored.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#414

Post by ekianjo »

iso1631 wrote: post #350
ekianjo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing democratic about the process. It's all unelected politicians ruling for you

Which ones are unelected - the democratically elected heads of the member state governments? Or the democratically elected members of the EU parliament? Or the commissioners that are appointed by the democratically elected heads of the member state governments?

> are appointed by the democratically elected heads

Appointed, so, not elected. Thanks for answering.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#415

Post by lifestyleguru »

jounker wrote: post #368
npodbielski wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is obvious? Why they need my messages for the voice speech emulation?

The person you’re replying to is saying that in the several years the technological means to impersonate people at scale has become widely available, and because of this financial institutions are having to strengthen their security measures to defend against fraud.

When last time employee of bank or public administration in developed world paid consequences for leaking private or biometric data, copies of documents or documents themselves?

Because now you have kiddos in customer service demanding things like deed of purchase of real estate or inheritance documents.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#416

Post by squigz »

DangitBobby wrote: post #390
squigz wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that says more about your biases than it does about the intelligence of 8 billion people though.

I'm not sure what factual basis you have for your optimism. I have plenty for my pessimism about human nature and our ability to competently govern ourselves as well as our general moral fortitude. We've gotten this far because we've been playing life on easy mode with a ridiculously nurturing planet and practically unlimited energy available under the ground, but we aren't smart enough or forward thinking enough to…

> We've gotten this far because we've been playing life on easy mode with a ridiculously nurturing planet and practically unlimited energy available under the ground, but we aren't smart enough or forward thinking enough to take on the minor pain necessary to avoid the catastrophe we are lumbering towards. We are short-sighted, selfish, self-important, and we haven't earned the regard in which we hold ourselves.

Where's your "factual basis" for such assertions?

> Regarding your specific point about using recent context to inform political opinions, if you spend any amount of time listening to the opinions of people online you'll find that not only do they fail to accurately recall past events, but they don't bother to research what actually happened, and when they do they fail at anything but the most superficial political analysis.

1) People regularly online are a rather specific group

2) People sharing their opinions online are a very specific group

3) Basing your views on society at large on opinions of those groups is a risky strategy, especially given how easy it has become to spread propaganda online

Anyway as for my optimism, it's based on actually interacting with people directly. Having discussions with them. Talking to them about what they believe, and why. They're usually a lot more complex and intelligent than those various descriptors used above.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#417

Post by squigz »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #348
squigz wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on average are really not that stupid and are absolutely capable of looking back a few years for context.

Tell me more about that, while here in Germany people again and again vote against their own interest (AfD, CDU, SPD, and all the other corrupt and inept politicians and parties) and the mainstream parties have not managed to improve our situation for some 4-5 election cycles. Tell me more about that, while looking at the US. I am quite sure many other countries can be added to this list.

It's easy to reach for the "people are stupid" argument.

It's harder to ask, "Why are people still voting for this despite it seemingly being against their interests"

But once you do start asking that question, you'll find "they're just stupid" isn't really the only answer. At least 1 other answer would be they're responding to politics of other parties failing them too.

Is it the most rational decision for those people? No, probably not, but ignoring their motivations and chalking it up to stupidity or whatnot is really not going to solve anything - and, in fact, is only going to push those people further into what they believe. You should consider whether that's what you want.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#418

Post by squigz »

YeahThisIsMe wrote: post #111
squigz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

Yes, there is. This shouldn't move forward at all, regardless of how many steps are involved and how small they are.

An angry, divided population is a lot easier to push to the extremes, enabling such legislation because people are so angry and divided and can't come to a reasonable compromise or solution.

These things shouldn't move forward, indeed. But being angry about it for years at a time when things aren't even remotely set in stone doesn't seem healthy for an individual or society at large.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#419

Post by squigz »

popalchemist wrote: post #395
squigz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

Mass surveillance of private messaging is something anyone with a brain should be angry about. Your position is insane.

Mass surveillance of private messaging has been happening since day 1 at Facebook and them.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#420

Post by wqaatwt »

iknowstuff wrote: post #357
dathinab wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have mentioned: 1. this wasn't fast, it took ~5 years and most (but not all) of the problematic parts have been removed 2. It also wasn't "fully rejected" or anything in the decision which gained some awareness of hacker news, just one specific draft was rejected, not the proposal as a whole (but IMHO it should have been). 3. it's not passed just approved by the council, which consists of the various head o…

EU law has supremacy over national laws. National courts need to disapply local laws in conflict with EU law, so typically any subsequent local disputes in court will just be ruled based on a new EU law/ruling. EU laws in conflict with a local constitution pose more of a challenge: from the EU point of view, EU law is supreme and they might apply infringement procedures for failing to recognize it, but for a country,…

> EU law has supremacy over national laws

Yes however EU has very limited capabilities to enforce that. They can bully smaller countries a bit more but Germany can do more or less whatever it wants

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