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Why is Zig so cool?

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Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#411

Post by weebull »

smj-edison wrote: post #398
dns_snek wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, this is probably my biggest ongoing issue with Zig. I really enjoy it overall but this is a really big sticking point. I find it really amusing that we have a language that has built its brand around "only one obvious way to do things", "reducing the amount one must remember", and passing allocators around so that callers can control the most suitable memory allocation strategy. And yet in this language we su…

Genuine question, how would error set unioning work with payloads? error.WriterFailed (might be getting the exact name wrong) is returned from many different writers, whether writing to a statically allocated array, writing to a socket, or writing to a file. Each error would have a very different payload, so how would you disambiguate between the different payloads with a global error type? The way I see it is either…

I'm also wondering what payload people want. There's already an error handling trace (similar but different to a normal stack trace) that captures the how the error propagates up to the point it's being handled so shows you exactly where the initial point was.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#412

Post by BoorishBears »

ksenzee wrote: post #159
BoorishBears wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure sometimes... other times you get deadpan replies unironically demanding citations and proof of claims. There's nothing veiled or an insult: what I mentioned is a real factor in why people would read that statement and jump to demanding proof. - If I told a room full of plumbers that Sharkbites are actually sponsored by big Water trying to encourage water wastage, it definitely might not land... but none of them…

You truly don't see how "you didn't get my joke because you're autistic" is not an insult, to people who did you the courtesy of assuming good faith? Not to drag this out, and I don't personally have an autism diagnosis, but seriously this is no way to act in a space where autism is overrepresented.

Good faith response to an absurdist statement being to demand a source for it sounds a lot like... well never mind.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#413

Post by BoorishBears »

bmacho wrote: post #304
1718627440 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to know about Poe's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

I don't think Poe's law is applicable here on HN/anymore in general. Writing something stupid is not as valuable/funny as it was in 2005. The lack of /s or /j is only one half of the problem, the other half is that that comment is garbage. (I estimate these two are ~50-50% problematic in this case.) I think a better rule of thumb is that one shouldn't use tone indicators at all. If you are needing them, then chances…

Sounds like a lot of rationalization around maybe just getting a bit older/bitterer in the 20 years since 2005 lol

(or maybe you did make stupid comments that were valuable and funny in 2005, I wouldn't know)

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#414

Post by WalterBright »

ScottRedig wrote: post #217
WalterBright wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

D has had compile time function execution since 2007 or so. https://dlang.org/spec/function.html#interpretation It doesn't need a keyword to trigger it. Any expression that is a const-expression in the grammar triggers it.

Hello Mr. Bright. I've seen similar comments from you in response to Zig before. Specifically, in the comments on blog post I made about Zig's comptime. I took some time reading D's documentation to try to understand your point (I didn't want to miss some prior art, after all). By the time I felt like I could give a reply, the thread was days old, so I didn't bother. The parent comment acknowledges that compile time…

> A difference I am uncertain about is if there's any D equivalent for Zig having types being expressions. You can, for example, calculate what the return type should be given a type of an argument.

This is done in D using templates. For example, to turn a type T into a type T star:

    template toPtr(T) { alias toPtr = T*; } // define template

    toPtr!int p; // instantiate template

    pragma(msg, "the type of p is: ", typeof(p));
The compiler will deduce the correct return type for a function by specifying auto* as the return type:

    auto toPtr(int i) { return cast(float)i; } // returns float
For conditional compilation at compile time, D has static if:

    enum x = square(3);  // evaluated at compile time
    static if (x == 4)
        int j;
    else
        double j;
    auto k = k;
Note that the static if* does not introduce a new scope, so conditional declarations will work.

The version is similar, but is intended for module-wide versions, such as:

    version (OSX)
    { stuff for OSX }
    else version (Win64)
    { stuff for Windows 64 }
    else
        static assert(0, "unsupported OS");
Compile time execution is triggered wherever a const-expression is required. A keyword would be redundant.

D's mixins are for generating code, which is D's answer to general purpose text macros. Running code at compile time enables those strings to be generated. The mixins and compile time execution are not the same feature. For a trivial example:

    string cat(string x, string y) { return x ~ "," ~ y; }
    string s = mixin(cat("hello", "betty")); // runs cat at compile time
    writeln(s); // prints: hello,betty
I'll be happy to answer any further questions

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#415

Post by WalterBright »

tialaramex wrote: post #216
WalterBright wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

D has had compile time function execution since 2007 or so. https://dlang.org/spec/function.html#interpretation It doesn't need a keyword to trigger it. Any expression that is a const-expression in the grammar triggers it.

Maybe I don't understand, in D, how do I write a function which makes a new type? For example Zig has a function ArrayHashMapWithAllocator which returns well, a hash table type in a fairly modern style, no separate chaining and so on Not an instance of that type, it returns the type itself, the type didn't exist, we called the function, now it does exist, at compile time (because clearly we can't go around making new…

See my other post.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#416

Post by WalterBright »

jhgb wrote: post #160
WalterBright wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

D has had compile time function execution since 2007 or so. https://dlang.org/spec/function.html#interpretation It doesn't need a keyword to trigger it. Any expression that is a const-expression in the grammar triggers it.

But Zig doesn't need a keyword to trigger it either? If it's possible at all, it will be done. The keyword should just prevent run-time evaluation. (Unless I grossly misunderstood something.)

I'm no expert on Zig, but "comptime" is the keyword to trigger it.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#417

Post by WalterBright »

pron wrote: post #375
WalterBright wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

D has had compile time function execution since 2007 or so. https://dlang.org/spec/function.html#interpretation It doesn't need a keyword to trigger it. Any expression that is a const-expression in the grammar triggers it.

Partial evaluation has been quite well known at least since 1943 and Kleene's Smn proof. It has since been put to use, in various forms, by quite a few languages (including C++ in 1990, and even C in the early seventies). But the extent and the way in which Zig specifically puts it to use -- which includes, but is not limited to, how it is used to replace other features that can then be avoided (and all without macro…

I'd like to see an example! as I cannot think of one.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#418

Post by vacuity »

JoeyJoJoJr wrote: post #267
wseqyrku wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zig is not only a new programming language, but it’s a totally new way to write programs I'd say the same thing about Rust. I find it the best way to express when what code should run at any given point in the program and the design is freakin interstellar: It is basically a "query engine" where you write a query of some code against the entire available "code space" including root crate and its dependencies. Once…

As someone not really familiar with Rust, this sounds intriguing, but I don’t full understand. Do you have any links that can or examples that could clarify this for someone who is just starting out with Rust?

Not GP, but I genuinely don't understand what GP is talking about.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#419

Post by nicce »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #381
beej71 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to dig farther on the compile time execution stuff. It's actually pretty cool-looking. Recommend digging into it. I don't know that it's a killer enough feature to draw me away from Rust's guarantees, but it is interesting.

It is difficult to overstate how useful compile-time execution is in practice. I can't imagine using a systems language without it now. The term "modern C++" largely denotes when compile-time execution was added to that language. I would love to see Rust get compile-time execution that is as capable as Zig or C++20.

> I would love to see Rust get compile-time execution that is as capable as Zig or C++20.

Can you give examples? Const functions are pretty capable in Rust already.

Re: Why is Zig so cool?

#420

Post by WalterBright »

jadbox wrote: post #315
WalterBright wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

D has had compile time function execution since 2007 or so. https://dlang.org/spec/function.html#interpretation It doesn't need a keyword to trigger it. Any expression that is a const-expression in the grammar triggers it.

Hi Walter! Big fan. What do you think of Zig? How would you like to see it evolve? Are there any things from Zig that inspire you to work in D?

I have never written a Zig program, I've just browsed the specification. I do admire the energy and enthusiasm of its creators. The fast compiles of it are well done.

Mostly what I think is the syntax is more complex with less utility than the equivalent D syntax. For example, the use of the 'comptime' keyword is not necessary. For another, the import declaration is overly complex.

I don't know enough about Zig to make informed suggestions on evolving it. D has borrowed stuff from many languages, but I don't recall suggestions in the D forums of a Zig feature that should be added to D, though I might have missed it.

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