One thing I haven't been able to figure - I have a flat in Spain with a combined aircon heat system costing ~$3k which functions from the physics point of view as a heat pump but was not marketed as a "heat pump" which I think are supposed to be more expensive. Is there any difference between heat/cool aircon and heat pumps?
Harnessing America's heat pump moment
411–420 of 571 posts
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
It will be interesting to see if this will make natural gas a more attractive source of residential heating as the price has remained relatively stable over the past 20 years. The push for electrification seems like it relies on us metaphorically drowning in excess cheap electricity and want somewhere for it to go but right now the opposite it happening.
>The price has remained relatively stable over the past 20 years Not really, natural gas has immense exposure to geopolitics and the commodity markets: https://www.iea.org/commentaries/what-drives-natural-gas-pri... There’s also the argument to be made (this has manifested in other countries) that as gas usage wanes and more homes electrify, nat gas costs will increase as the infrastructure costs are spread among few…
> There’s also the argument to be made (this has manifested in other countries) that as gas usage wanes and more homes electrify, nat gas costs will increase as the infrastructure costs are spread among fewer and fewer people
This has kinda wonky incentives though - if your fixed costs for gas are high but your marginal costs remain low and for whatever logistical reasons you can't cut the gas connection entirely, then your motivations are to move as much of your heating load over to gas as possible.
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#413Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#414Earlier quoted context omitted.
Solar in northernly climates is still not practical. (I’m Canada adjacent.)
You can break even on solar panels in 10-15 years in Sweden where I live and we're pretty damn northerly.
Right, that’s a bad financial investment. If I put $100 in the stock market, in 10 to 15 years, I will have $200 to $300, on average. If I put $100 into solar panels, in 10 or 15 years, I will have break even.
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
In US the labor & markup is a huge component. I got HVAC drop-in replacement quotes ranging from $7k to $14k for what upon some quick research was about $3k in hardware.
Can you do the installation yourself? In my country i have to make a HVAC technician come to check the installation and sign a paper before i can start mine (200€ for a 15 minutes job, but it's less than the 2-4k it would cost to not do it myself) [edit] i say that because my hardware is 2.5k euros, so ~3k¯dollars, so we probably have the same high end stuff, and i guarantee you it's not hard to install, and it can b…
[deleted]
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
They can work at lower temperatures, but they do need the auxiliary heat to deice the outside coils.
It's my understanding that nowadays most heat pumps have a defrost cycle where they automatically run in reverse for a bit with some or all fans off
When it’s running in reverse then it’s acting as an air conditioner blowing cold air into the house. So usually the heat strips are used then to reheat the air and prevent it from blowing cold air in the middle of winter. Not strictly necessary but most people demand it.
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#417One thing I haven't been able to figure - I have a flat in Spain with a combined aircon heat system costing ~$3k which functions from the physics point of view as a heat pump but was not marketed as a "heat pump" which I think are supposed to be more expensive. Is there any difference between heat/cool aircon and heat pumps?
A heat pump is a reversable air conditioner so every heat / cool air conditioner is a heat pump regardless of name. Interesting that they cost more over yonder though if you use the name. We can get a heat pump here in the US for about 700$.
I installed one in the basement 2 years ago and it has been a gamechanger.
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
Solar in northernly climates is still not practical. (I’m Canada adjacent.)
People told me that, but I did the calculations myself and the impact on my energy bills is real. Net metering is essential though, so not everyone can do it. Compared to say SoCal I generate 2/3 as much per year, much less evenly- a lot more in summer than winter, whereas further south there's less variation year round. Cooler temperatures improve solar panel efficiency too. There are online solar potential calculat…
Right, but you have to compare it to the opportunity cost of the money. A solar panel is an annuity. There is a one time sunk cost for a relatively consistent, long-term payout.
If I put $100 into the stock market in approximately seven years I will have $200. If I put $100 into solar panels, in 10 or 15 years, I will have $100 worth of savings. Financially, it is not much better than just putting it under a mattress.
I get that the non-economic parts of solar are pretty much all upside. I’m not saying nobody should do it. Just that they should view it as a luxury, not an economic opportunity. But until the finances work out, it will not achieve widespread adoption, and the finances are a function of how much sun you have and your energy prices.
Those of us up north have little sun and lower energy prices. We would be a lot better off just putting your money in the stock market and paying for your electricity if you were only considering money. That is not true of the American southwest.
I have homes in both Phoenix and Cleveland and I have done the math on both. I actually can’t put solar in Phoenix, I wish I could, it would be a great investment. I could put solar in Cleveland, but I might as well throw my money down the drain. I can’t imagine the math is any better in Canada.
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#419Earlier quoted context omitted.
Umm, I encourage you to do that math a little closer. A contractor would have to; Come to your house to quote, and only land 1/4 quotes maybe. Schedule the workers Order the equipment. Get an electrical permit. Pay for the truck and all the tools. Insurance for the company and trucks. Advertising costs Warranty and callbacks I can assure you that this is not the get rich quick scheme you may think it is.
The equipment is actually a lot cheaper if you’re a pro - the DIY pre-charged line-set adds about $500 over an equivalent unit. Pulling a vacuum and adding coolant is not hard, just requires specialized tools that still aren’t that expensive. I mentioned warranty and insurance. You don’t need to “schedule workers” if you are owner operating. Maybe you want a (non-skilled) helper to speed up the install, but you absol…
Devils advocate here, it cost me ~$1500 in equipment to buy the vacuum pump, vacuum gauge, nitrogen air tank to flush the lines and pressure test, pressure manifold set and gauge, air lines, good flaring tool, copper bending tool, schrader valve pulling tools, various air tools, and a book on mini split installations.
Then it took me 2 days between pouring concrete pad for the heat pump, installing the heat pump and bolting it in, running the copper lines, drilling the exit hole, running the drain piping, learning how to use all the tools, running the electric and control cables and installing a new breaker and 220 subpanel, pressure testing, vacuum testing, flaring, releasing vacuum and all the stuff you have to do. I also had to spend several nights watching youtube and get a EPA 608 certification for handling refrigant which took another day.
Wouldn't have been worth it for a single unit, but was worth it for installing 3, and now I can do additional units for basically $0 overhead and of course no one would even have to know if I installed it and now I can order unlimited amount of refrigerants to my doorstep.
Having plumbed my entire house, and done my entire house electrical system, I would say the level of expertise to install a mini split is higher than either alone. You have to do electrical, plumbing, refrigerant handling, pressurized equipment handling, be liable for massive federal/EPA fines if you do something wrong, and on top of that I had to do masonry work.
Re: Harnessing America's heat pump moment
#420Where do I put the wood-burning stove/heater?