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French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

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Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#411

Post by Nicook »

falcor84 wrote: post #61
boltzmann-brain wrote: post #12

oh I wish the American people were this brave

Reading up about Israeli politics, it seems that this might be a "be careful what you wish for" situation. They had previously put in prison both a prime minister and a president, and the disastrous governance there over the last decade and a half appears to be in large motivated by Netanyahu's almost certain knowledge that he'll go to prison if and when he loses his grip on the reins. The documentary The Bibi Files…

and everyone's favorite example of killing a democracy/republic to avoid prosecution, Julius Cesar.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#412

Post by oldgradstudent »

falcor84 wrote: post #61
boltzmann-brain wrote: post #12

oh I wish the American people were this brave

Reading up about Israeli politics, it seems that this might be a "be careful what you wish for" situation. They had previously put in prison both a prime minister and a president, and the disastrous governance there over the last decade and a half appears to be in large motivated by Netanyahu's almost certain knowledge that he'll go to prison if and when he loses his grip on the reins. The documentary The Bibi Files…

> motivated by Netanyahu's almost certain knowledge that he'll go to prison if and when he loses his grip on the reins.

Guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is determined by trial in an open court where defendent has the right to cross examine witnesses and present evidence. Do not assume guilt or innocence based on heavily politisized reporting.

For anyone who is not following the trial, Netanyahu was charged with bribery and a few lesser charges which do not have a direct US equivalents. As soon as the prosecution's case-in-chief was over, the judges publicly notified the prosecution that they should drop the bribery charges as they are unlikely to be able to prove them.

The prosecution case for briberty was built on a hypothesized meeting in which Netanyahu supposedely instructed the director general of the ministry of communications to serve the interests of Elovitch.

During cross examination, the defense managed to prove conclusively that such a meeting, as described, could not have occurred. They also showed that the prosecution had in its possession all the necssary evidence to show such a meeting could not have occurred.

https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/local/409910/ (use Google Translate)

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#413

Post by tinfoilhatter »

lunias wrote: post #316
greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

I don't think this problem is exclusive to France. I'm more interested in how the consumption and consideration of mainstream media is trending given its rampant bias. Clearly they think they can get away with it, I wonder if people are letting them.

It's definitely not a problem exclusive to France: https://swprs.org/the-american-empire-and-its-media/

Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted for providing a link to a website and infographic shining light on the lack of independence in US media. That's HN for you.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#414

Post by Bratmon »

hamandcheese wrote: post #378
returningfory2 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much for this comment - you've put a name ("contrarian and counter-cyclical reporting") on a phenomenon that I've observed a lot and is one of the main reasons I don't consume the media anymore. The craziest example for me was NYC congestion pricing. When it was about to happen, all the reporting was about all of the downsides of the tolls starting. A week after the New York Governor "indefinitely paused…

So the media intentionally stirs controversy and they aren't even getting paid to do it by hostile states or the ultra-wealthy? There really is no hope is there.

There is one group that funds the majority of the media and conditions that funding on nonstop controversy all the time: average people.

The vast majority of people don't look at news media (much less pay for it) unless there's a massive controversy.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#415

Post by baby »

greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

In the last years I've noticed a huge number of pro sarkozy videos with epic soundtracks and diverse appearances from the guy. He is clearly a good speaker, but also clearly incompetent and mostly a good actor. I also noticed how much they invited his son to talk about important topics when the guy is just... The son of sarkozy

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#416

Post by baby »

Aurornis wrote: post #216
greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

> Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. How much of this is driven by contrarian and counter-cyclical reporting? I’m not familiar with French media, but I see the same pattern in every country where I’ve kept up with the news: Media starts being favorable to a topic when it’s up and coming, switching to being highly…

There is some of that, but most often the contrarian news is commissioned and paid for, and if it succeeds then you get organic growth

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#417

Post by fransje26 »

adev_ wrote: post #195
fransje26 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly the former. The current sentence is for the illegal financing of his presidential campaign to the tune of 50 million euro, which is well above the legal cost cap. Although the amounts are benign compared to the amount of bribery seen in the US presidential runs, it is still unfair democratically and should be punished harshly accordingly. Interestingly, this case isn't motivated by financial greed, as in bribe…

> So you could be certain that such a high-profile case was not done without the go-ahead of the executive. In that sense, it can be considered politically motivated. Not really. It is more complex than that. There is two systems within the system for the "penal" (judiciary) in France: - Le parquet, with a "procureur" who indirectly under the influence of the executive power. - The "Juge d'Instruction". They are inde…

Well yes. But no. And that's exactly why there is always a risk of a "politically tainted" investigations.

The "Juge d'instruction" is not an independent judge that will, out of his own will, start an investigation.

He can start an investigation when asked by the "procureur", directly or indirectly under influence of the executive power, or by private citizens, as a "partie civile". The Sarkozy case was started by the former.

On top of that, the "juge d'instruction" is nominated by the Minister of Justice for a period of 3 years, which means it is, once again, linked to the executive power.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#418

Post by adev_ »

IMTDb wrote: post #264
adev_ wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you could be certain that such a high-profile case was not done without the go-ahead of the executive. In that sense, it can be considered politically motivated. Not really. It is more complex than that. There is two systems within the system for the "penal" (judiciary) in France: - Le parquet, with a "procureur" who indirectly under the influence of the executive power. - The "Juge d'Instruction". They are inde…

It's also worth noting that members of the second system had his picture pinned on a wall called "The wall of the assholes"[1] amongst other political and public servant they did not like. They still claim they are totally independent and impartial when judging any of these figures. [1] (French Wikipedia article about the affair) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_du_%C2%AB_Mur_des_cons...

> It's also worth noting that members of the second system

Nope. This picture was found in the office of an Union related to "magistrats".

Magistrats is a broad term that also include Procureurs, Judges but also some Lawyers.

The union is not specifically associated to the position of "Juge d'instruction" by any means.

But yes, generally speaking Politicians do not like Magistrats and Magistrats do not like politicians in France. And honestly, it is more healthy like that.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#419

Post by baby »

h1fra wrote: post #295
greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

As always, france is always just 5-10 years behind US craziness.

I think we won't get there because we are willing to put corrupted politicians in prison. The day Trump goes to prison I will change my mind on US politics.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#420

Post by rcxdude »

returningfory2 wrote: post #325
Aurornis wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. How much of this is driven by contrarian and counter-cyclical reporting? I’m not familiar with French media, but I see the same pattern in every country where I’ve kept up with the news: Media starts being favorable to a topic when it’s up and coming, switching to being highly…

Thank you so much for this comment - you've put a name ("contrarian and counter-cyclical reporting") on a phenomenon that I've observed a lot and is one of the main reasons I don't consume the media anymore. The craziest example for me was NYC congestion pricing. When it was about to happen, all the reporting was about all of the downsides of the tolls starting. A week after the New York Governor "indefinitely paused…

There is also a bias that the people who agree with the status quo tend not to be noisy about it, so as the status quo shifts you may well hear from different people to before.
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