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Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

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Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#411

Post by mschuster91 »

yupyupyups wrote: post #407
mschuster91 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. The problem with China is that the "free access" was always one-sided as we did not insist on reciprocity - not for the Internet, not for tourism, not for companies, not for goods. We gave China everything - we allowed their people to study at our universities, we allowed their tourists, we gave them vir…

We got back slave labour and offshored manufacturing pollution. Personally, I'd rather pay extra for high quality goods made ethically than some planned obsolescence or plastic garbage.

> offshored manufacturing pollution

One might be tempted to say that offshoring the manufacturing pollution was the point - the Silicon Valley is the US' top Superfund site for a reason [1]. Now it's not Western countries that get to deal with the legacy of a few decades of exploitative capitalism, it's China, Taiwan and India which are out of sight, out of mind to us.

> Personally, I'd rather pay extra for high quality goods made ethically than some planned obsolescence or plastic garbage.

Indeed but that's a niche market which means R&D costs alone make products so much more expensive that it's basically impossible to compete... and for the stuff that is made domestically, manufacturers love to go for "planned obsolescence" and other strategies to turn consumer spending into recurring revenue - always remember BMW and subscription seat heaters.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/09/silic...

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#412

Post by mtrovo »

mschuster91 wrote: post #379
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. It’s a continuation of recent trends and closing markets. Nobody in their sane mind would allow a company like ASML or the likes to be purchased by competitors. But the irony is that when a non-European entity were to do something like this, e.g. nationalize their oil or mining etc. industry or a firm, the…

> Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. The problem with China is that the "free access" was always one-sided as we did not insist on reciprocity - not for the Internet, not for tourism, not for companies, not for goods. We gave China everything - we allowed their people to study at our universities, we allowed their tourists, we gave them vir…

You're talking about it as if it was a bug, it was not. I'm pretty sure a generation of MBAs got raised and retired really rich shifting manufacturing jobs to China. The narrative about them not being open is just a way to cope with their rise now and get rid of any blame.

> We gave China everything - we allowed their people to study at our universities, we allowed their tourists, we gave them virtually full access to our economic market, we gave them access to the Internet, we gave them seriously discounted shipping rates and customs exemptions.

Lol, when you have to convince people that working in services instead of manufacturing is the future, that's what you get. Mindset is also a big issue, I know enough people who played the Erasmus game and graduated in double the normal time just by coasting that I think it's just normal at this point. And the problem with this spiral is that it just compounds, Europe is shifting to a continent of pensionists, highly educated people that live with their parents til their 40s and nepobabies playing airbnb landlords.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#413

Post by chvid »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #133
Doxin wrote: post #5

Some more context from a dutch news source[0]: The ministry of economic affairs intervened out of a fear that crucial technological skills and capacities will leave the Netherlands and Europe. The ministry stated in a press release[1] that there was a threat of a "knowledge leak" (w/e that means exactly) and a possible threat to the European economy. After this intervention the Dutch government can now stop or revers…

Everybody is a fan of free access and capital markets, until a foreign entity purchases something of importance. It’s a continuation of recent trends and closing markets. Nobody in their sane mind would allow a company like ASML or the likes to be purchased by competitors. But the irony is that when a non-European entity were to do something like this, e.g. nationalize their oil or mining etc. industry or a firm, the…

There is a difference between blocking a sale on natsec grounds and first allowing a sale, taking in billions of investment, and then 7 years later nationalizing the company on natsec grounds.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#414

Post by lillecarl »

croes wrote: post #295
Gud wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not ironic. The Chinese are engaging in this behaviour, while they have had full access to western markets, arguably detrimental to the west. So now Europe are doing the same thing.

It’s ironic. China just did it first. I can’t call something wrong and then to the same. If, for instance, we call out China for surveillance of their citizens and then start doing the same, isn‘t that ironic?

I can, if someone assaults me I'm either running away or swinging back. We gave them access to our markets, they didn't give us access to theirs. What this is is just "playing even".

This is not the same as surveillance, that's internal affairs. This is external affairs.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#415

Post by cies »

meekaaku wrote: post #410
cies wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China never claimed it's markets were free to enter by foreigners. US/EU did. If tit-for-tat is our policy, then we should at least be upfront about it and enshrine it in law, instead of using some ancient law to slap China with: that's arbitrariness.

Reducing/eliminating those mandatory joint ventures were a requirement for China to join WTO. But in practice it delayed these reforms.

Everyone who screws over the WTO has my sympathy.

Anyway, the Dutch should then make a law that demands WTO status or smth. As this is NOT nicely applying rule of law.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#416

Post by Doxin »

emmelaich wrote: post #191
Doxin wrote: post #5

Some more context from a dutch news source[0]: The ministry of economic affairs intervened out of a fear that crucial technological skills and capacities will leave the Netherlands and Europe. The ministry stated in a press release[1] that there was a threat of a "knowledge leak" (w/e that means exactly) and a possible threat to the European economy. After this intervention the Dutch government can now stop or revers…

It's a bit pathetic that European countries do not have the tech capacity to compete equally without having to do stuff like this. (Not saying China is playing fair btw, just saying there's a vast amount of underused intellectual resources in Europe.)

You do realize this is china trying to abscond with European tech? Not the other way around?

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#417

Post by themgt »

motorest wrote: post #284
roughly wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets a lot less contradictory when you realize the principles are window dressing for the interests. Early America had no regard for intellectual property rights because all the good media came from abroad - then we built Hollywood and saw the light. The west pushes deregulation and free trade because we've got the money and the only thing that can keep us from sucking a market dry is government intervention. The…

> It gets a lot less contradictory when you realize the principles are window dressing for the interests. I don't think this is the epiphany you think it represents. The whole point of laws and regulations is to protect interests. Do you think that any regime passes and enforces laws that are detrimental to their best interests? In free market economies, laws and regulations are put in place to foster competition, an…

However, laws and regulations are also in place to prevent strategic interests from being captured or even threatened. The motivation is rather obvious and to the point. Where is this window dressing you speak of?

And yet the sale was allowed - 7 years ago - and only voided now under cloak and dagger, via a never-before used law. The window dressing is the entire "international rules based order" we hear so much about. If it's all just interests, then you can't complain about Russia invading Ukraine, Israel annexing land from various neighbors, China taking Taiwan and seizing TSMC, etc.

Having a rival third-party perform an action that threatens your competitiveness is obviously not acceptable.

And yet that being acceptable is the entire basis of the free market system. So yes I'm just whistling past the graveyard, but the hypocrisy is real and there should be no crying about principles later. The embrace of "the strong do as they will and the weak suffer as they must" - just as the west's relative strength is at its lowest ebb in perhaps hundreds of years - is at the the very least a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#418

Post by rswail »

motorest wrote: post #301
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for cars. Microsoft has been independent in China since the late 90s, although they had to find a partner to do Azure.

> although they had to find a partner to do Azure. By "finding a partner" you actually mean have Azure-branded services provided by Chinese companies through isolated data centers. Which kind of proves OPs point.

Same as AWS ("cn" regions) which often has different rules, especially with cross-region comms.

Same applies to the US gov cloud regions and Apple's iCloud.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#419

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

motorest wrote: post #359
globalnode wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

free for me but not for thee

> free for me but not for thee That's rich, coming from a country which outright bands foreign corporations from even operating within their borders, and those who they allow have to operate through a state-controlled corporate minder.

And then you actually go to China and are shocked to realize that Western companies and brands are everywhere. Starbucks and KFC on every other corner. Tesla, Volkswagen and BMW cars clogging the roads. Rich people wearing Italian luxury brands, middle-class people wearing Nike and Adidas athleisure wear.

China is nothing like your paranoid fantasy.

Re: Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker Nexperia

#420

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

motorest wrote: post #284
roughly wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets a lot less contradictory when you realize the principles are window dressing for the interests. Early America had no regard for intellectual property rights because all the good media came from abroad - then we built Hollywood and saw the light. The west pushes deregulation and free trade because we've got the money and the only thing that can keep us from sucking a market dry is government intervention. The…

> It gets a lot less contradictory when you realize the principles are window dressing for the interests. I don't think this is the epiphany you think it represents. The whole point of laws and regulations is to protect interests. Do you think that any regime passes and enforces laws that are detrimental to their best interests? In free market economies, laws and regulations are put in place to foster competition, an…

There used to be a concept of enlightened self interest, in which countries agreed to play by universal rules that they benefit from in the long run, but which might not be in their favor in every particular case.

Now, we're in an era of petty self interest, in which no one trusts anyone else, international institutions and laws carry no weight, and everyone is poorer and less safe in the long run.

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