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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

metalhearf.fr

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#411

Post by palata »

blaze33 wrote: post #407
palata wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the legal argument solid enough to justify interfering with everybody's right to privacy? "... except such as is in accordance with the law" And the "interfering" coming from ChatControl is that "some algorithm" locally scans and detects illegal material, and doesn't do anything if there is no illegal material. > Watching everyone's communications also seems at odds with the principle of proportionality It'…

I understand but frankly "doesn't do anything if there is no illegal material" reminds me too much of the old anti-privacy argument "nothing to hide, nothing to fear". It is about control and purpose, "my OS watches my communications" is true but weird to say because there's an expectation, unless compromised, that the OS is under my control so no problem. A third-party controlling the local scan of all my data speci…

> A third-party controlling the local scan of all my data specifically to report whatever it wants is a huge problem.

And that is exactly my point: you fundamentally can't audit what ChatControl is doing, because you don't have access to the "list of illegal material" (precisely because it is illegal). So whoever controls that list could abuse it.

I see lot of weird arguments like "it's breaking encryption" and "it's destroying democracies". It's wrong. The problem is that it may be abused if your democracy doesn't work as well as it should. And it's good enough an argument to be against ChatControl.

My whole point is that it's not constructive to throw baseless complaints at ChatControl: there is a valid argument against it (still looking for more), and we need to use it.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#412

Post by DoingIsLearning »

varispeed wrote: post #365
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #27

This is (mostly) about Tech companies' money, namely: - Palantir Technologies - 'not-for-profit' Thorn > The Commission’s failure to identify the list of experts as falling within the scope of the complainant’s public access request constitutes maladministration. [0] > ... the complainant contended that the precision rate of technologies like those developed by the organisation are often overestimated. It is therefor…

and if people point out EU is completely corrupt and we have complete breakdown of any agencies that should keep it under control, they get downvoted. EU turns into fascist (policies controlled by corporations) quasi state before our eyes. If you are working for any crime agency, put away biscuits and move your lazy arse to work!

No, I strongly disagree.

The EU is by far one of the least corrupt and most transparent organizations in European History, by design and by process.

The fact that I am able to produce all those reference documents in the previous comment is substantial evidence of this.

The issue here is the European Comission. Both in the appointment of Commissioners as well as in the checks and balances against the Comissioners and President of the EC.

To be anti-EU is throwing the baby with the bathwater and more seriously plays into the hands of every geopolitical player around us.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#413

Post by palata »

Saline9515 wrote: post #395
palata wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could imagine that war orders may be interpreted as "illegal" and therefore reported. Which may not be desirable?

So it's ok if the database containing my nudes leaks, but not if it contains state secrets? I feel really protected!

Not saying that I agree, just saying that I can imagine it's not done in bad faith.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#414

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

_9ptr wrote: post #180
gameman144 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I concur (fancy word for believe which I wanted to share lol) you are talking about america. Just a heads up but concur means "agree", not "believe"

I assent to that statement

Made me have a good ol chuckle / laugh.

Kinda liked it, so thanks lol

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#415

Post by palata »

Saline9515 wrote: post #400
palata wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it's closed source so you have no idea of what is happening. Exactly! That's the problem! It's not killing the encryption, it's not sharing all your communications with the government. Those are invalid arguments. The problem is that whoever controls the proprietary part of ChatControl (and that includes the list of illegal material) can abuse it to e.g. detect political opponents, or whatever they can imag…

I think that the correct sentence would be that it kills the purpose of encryption. Which is to prevent anyone aside of the recipient from reading your message.

For the vast majority of people, the purpose of encryption is not to prevent a trusted law enforcement from reading the message.

Say the police knocks at my door and asks me nicely to read my messages, I will show them. Doesn't mean I don't care about them being encrypted when I send them over the Internet.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#416

Post by palata »

Metalhearf wrote: post #347
palata wrote: post #294

Most arguments I see against ChatControl sound like bullshit to me. How do we expect to convince anyone to go against ChatControl with those? I feel unease when it comes to ChatControl; I don't want my devices to run proprietary, opaque algorithms on all my data. And it feels like it fundamentally has to be opaque: nobody can't publish an open source list of illegal material together with their hash (precisely becaus…

Thanks for your feedback. You’ve raised some interesting points, I’ll take them into account and try to update some of my arguments.

I didn't expect to be read by the author of the article!

Just to be clear: thanks for talking about ChatControl and for bringing visibility to the topic! And I am on your side!

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#417

Post by palata »

Levitz wrote: post #401
palata wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans have been encrypting communication since communication was possible. Were most people encrypting their handwritten letters? Were most people encrypting their messages before sending them by SMS or with WhatsApp? Really?

No, because there was an expectation of privacy. That expectation is no longer there.

Privacy from who? Law enforcement has been leveraging that forever.

But ChatControl won't prevent the encryption for anyone who is not the receiver of the reports. And the receiver is the equivalent of "law enforcement", right?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#418

Post by txrx0000 »

jansper39 wrote: post #386
txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

>you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. As a UK citizen, can you explain your reasoning here? We haven't implemented anything like the chat control proposal and while a few politicians have brought up similar ideas, there is a lot of pushback against it.

The UK doesn't have the exact equivalent of chat control yet, but it already arrests people for politically incorrect posts. They're doing things in smaller steps, which is more likely to succeed.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#419

Post by palata »

thfuran wrote: post #385
palata wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden said otherwise, more than a decade ago.

Which part are you disputing?

The fact that ChatControl is killing democracies.

It's a tool that could be abused, but I wouldn't say that it is enough to kill a democracy all by itself.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#420

Post by Imustaskforhelp »

LexiMax wrote: post #175
DangitBobby wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large portion of the population either does not believe or does not mind the violations of our constitution to achieve their desired outcomes. As an American, it came as a surprise to me that we do not, in fact, have broadly shared values about our system of governance. This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally.

> This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally. The latter has been on my mind for quite some time. The logical conclusion of "people can't govern themselves generally" kind of gestures at religion as a solution - after all, if man cannot govern themselves, why not rely on a higher power to manage them? Of course, the problem with tha…

I agree to the same thing to a somewhat degree from another standpoint / a discussion worth tapping into.

Its not that the logical conclusion is "people can't govern themselves generally"

Its that, we have created a system which incentivizes corruption or basically evil things for the most part from TOP TO BOTTOM partially influenced by biological factors beyond our control.

Sure, one answer to the "people can't govern themselves generally" is to decentralize the power.

I live in India and I loathed my political system thinking that it wasn't good and I really appreciated american political system but the more I think about it, fundamentally Indian political system is one of the best actually.

It has 3 levels of decentralization with Strong Right to information and uh multi party system with Even Universal basic income which I came to know from an american which is a real shocker I know.

Yet I still see people begging and there being some chaos, My logical answer to it is corruption from TOP TO BOTTOM which I observed atleast.

I sort of believe that the same thing happens everywhere to be honest if that can make sense...

Like, there is corruption and human evils which is what people select in real life anonymous things as compared to true morality that one can reason through. Simply for one's own profit.

It also might be one of those debates that India might have a good political system but simply the people don't have enough money or something and they want more or everyone does it which is a common answer that I actually hear.

I believe that the reason why people can't govern themselves generally is that there is a biological answer to it in the sense that for people to govern themselves, we would prefer /need an altruist society and in an altruist society, and how the genes which favour a bit of evil in altruist society might reproduce more and spread sort of thus creating an equilibra of sorts and combining with that the idea on how interlinked/interinfluential each of us is to one other through language.

It was a catharsis to me, The answer might be depressing. But its fundamentally logic. Life just sort of happened and then it got way too focused on spreading itself / the one which did survived and boom that's biology which then gets to this political thing...

Like it was sort of meant to happen y'know? atleast that's my current understanding of it. Would love to discuss tho.

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