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I ditched Docker for Podman

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Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#411

Post by Izmaki »

matsemann wrote: post #34
Izmaki wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your companies need to worry about licenses. Docker ENGINE is free and open source. Docker DESKTOP is a software suite that requires you to purchase a license to use in a company. But Docker Engine, the core component which works on Linux, Mac and Windows through WSL2, that is completely and 1000% free to use.

If you've installed Docker on Windows you've most likely done that by using Docker Desktop, though.

That's just one way. The alternative is WSL 2 with Docker Engine.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#412

Post by bityard »

kiney wrote: post #252
rsyring wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, there aren't even any trusted repos out there building/publishing a .deb for it. The ones that I could find when I searched last were all outdated or indicated they were not going to keep moving forward. I could get over this. But, IMO, it lends itself to asking the "why" question. Why wouldn't Podman make installing it easier? And the only thing that makes sense to me is that RedHat doesn't want their…

debian trixie has podman 5 packages in official repos. Good chance thqt those work on ubuntu

Not a good idea: https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

(It's titled "Don't Break Debian" but might also be called "Don't Break Ubuntu" as it applies there just as well.)

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#413

Post by bityard »

awoimbee wrote: post #220

The main issue is podman support on Ubuntu. Ubuntu ships outdated podman versions that don't work out of the box. So I use podman v5, GitHub actions uses podman v3, and my coworkers on Ubuntu use docker. So now my script must work with old podman, recent podman and docker

Since Podman is open source, Ubuntu (and others) are able to package it and and update it themselves if they choose. But I think it's understandable that Red Hat would not want to pay their development teams to package their software for a direct competitor.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#414

Post by ThomW »

We did the same. Switching was a cinch honestly - the only thing that screwed me up was some dumb page that returned a bunch of nonsense I was supposed to do to my docker-compose.yml file to make it more compatible with podman-compose. I spent a couple hours trying to figure out why things weren't working, until I finally rolled back all the stupid suggested changes, and my app fired right up.

The only impactful difference I've noticed so far is that the company is moving to an artifact repository that requires authentication, and mounting secrets using --mount doesn't support the env= parameter -- that's really it.

I treat podman like I did docker all day long and it works great.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#415

Post by ttul »

Back in 2001/2002, I was charged with building a WiFi hotspot box. I was a fan of OpenBSD and wanted to slim down our deployment, which was running on Python, to avoid having to copy a ton of unnecessary files to the destination systems. I also wanted to avoid dependency-hell. Naturally, I turned to `chroot` and the jails concept.

My deployment code worked by running the software outside of the jail environment and monitoring the running processes using `ptrace` to see what files it was trying to open. The `ptrace` output generated a list of dependencies, which could then be copied to create a deployment package.

This worked brilliantly and kept our deployments small and immutable and somewhat immune to attack -- not that being attacked was a huge concern in 2001 as it is today. When Docker came along, I couldn't help but recall that early work and wonder whether anyone has done a similar thing to monitor file usage within Docker containers and trim them down to size after observing actual use.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#416

Post by brennyb »

politelemon wrote: post #73
esseph wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having an LLM function as a translation layer from docker compose to k8s yaml works really well. On another note, podman can generate k8s yaml for you, which is a nice touch and easy way to transition.

Use an LLM is not a solution. It's effectively telling you to switch your brain off and hope nothing goes wrong in the future. In reality things do go wrong and any conversation should be done with a good understanding of the system involved.

"Using an IDE is not a solution" same arguments, same counter arguments. An abstraction being leaky does not mean it's useless. You will always need to drop down a layer occasionally, but there's value in not having to live on the lower layer all the time.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#417

Post by j45 »

zer00eyz wrote: post #378
nickjj wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the plus side, any company I work for doesn't have to worry about licences. Win win! Was this a deal breaker for any company? I ask because the Docker Desktop paid license requirement is quite reasonable. If you have less than 250 employees and make less than $10 million in annual revenue it's free. If you have a dev team of 10 people and are extremely profitable to where you need licenses you'd end up paying $9…

> you'd end up paying $9 a year per developer for the license It's only 9 bucks a year, its only 5 bucks a month, its less than a dollar a day. Docker, ide, ticking system, GitHub, jira, sales force, email, office suit, Figma.... all of a sudden your spending 1000 bucks a month per staff member for a small 10 person office. Meanwhile AWS is charging you .01xxxx for bandwidth, disk space, cpu time, s3 buckets, databas…

The loaded cost is truly something else, and most understood by people who had to find a way to pay for it all, or paid for it all for others.

The majority of businesses in the world, (and the majority of jobs) are created and delivered by small business, not big.

And then the issues when a service goes down it takes everyone else down with it.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#418

Post by amclennon »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #393

If "security" is the reason you're switching to Podman, I have some bad news. Linux gets a new privilege escalation exploit like once a month. If something would break out of the Docker daemon, it will break out of your own user account just fine. Using a non-root app does not make you secure, regardless of whatever containerization feature claims to add security in your own user namespace. On top of all that, Docker…

> That's why cloud providers all use mini-VMs to run customer containers (e.g. AWS Fargate) or force the customer to manage their own VMs that run the containers.

This is only partially true. Google's runtime (gvisor) does not share a kernel with the host machine, but still runs inside of a container.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#419

Post by akerl_ »

weberc2 wrote: post #398
akerl_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn’t generally the cost, it’s the complexity. You end up having to track who has it installed. Hired 5 more people this week? How many of them will want docker desktop? Oh, we’ve maxed the licenses we bought? Time to re-open the procurement process and amend the purchase order.

I'm of the opinion that large companies should be paying for the software they use regardless of whether it's open source or not, because software isn't free to develop. So assuming you're paying for the software you use, you still have the problem that you are subject to your internal procurement processes. If your internal procurement processes make it really painful to add a new seat, then maybe the processes need…

So, I'm of two thoughts here:

1. As parallel commenters have pointed out, no. Plenty of open source developers exist who aren't interested in getting paid for their open source projects. You can tell this because some open source projects sell support or have donation links or outright sell their open source software and some do not. This line of thinking seems to come out of some utopian theoretical world where open source developers shouldn't sell their software because that makes them sell-outs but users are expected to pay them anyways.

2. I do love the idea of large companies paying for open source software they use because it tends to set up all kinds of good incentives for the long term health of software projects. That said, paying open source projects tends to be comically difficult. Large companies are optimized for negotiating enterprise software agreements with a counterparty that is primed to engage in that process. They often don't have a smooth way to like, just feed money into a Donate form, or make a really big Github or Patreon Sponsorship, etc. So even people in large companies that really want to give money to open source devs struggle to do so.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#420

Post by mmcnl »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #101
linuxftw wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I run docker in WSL. I also do 100% of my development in WSL (for work, anyway). Windows is basically just my web browser.

Ironic username. As a die hard, WSL aint bad though. I just can't deal with an OS that automatically quarantines bittorrent clients, decides to override local administrator policies via windows updates and pops up ad notifications.

I personally use Windows + WSL2 and for work use macOS. I prefer Windows + WSL2 by a longshot. It just "works". macOS never "just works" for me. Colima is fine but requires a static memory allocation for the VM, it doesn't have the level of polish that WSL2 has. Brew is awful compared to apt (which you get with WSL2 because it's just Linux).

And then there's the windowing system of macOS that feels like it's straight from the 90s. "System tray" icons that accumulate over time and are distracting, awful window management with clunky animations, the near useless dock (clicking on VS Code shows all my 6 IDEs, why?). Windows and Linux are much modern in that regard.

The Mac hardware is amazing, well worth its price, but the OS feels like it's from a decade ago.

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