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Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

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Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#411

Post by mlyle »

ericmay wrote: post #410
mlyle wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think making things more expensive for consumers is going to help that happen. I think it's going to steepen the divide between capital and labor. And most of the products we're talking about that are coming in via de minimis are not exactly competing with US "artisans." Indeed, I'm helping train future US artisans, and we depend upon being able to get input components cheaply and consistently, which is becom…

But as I look around with our current trade strategy (pre-tariff) I've only seen exactly what you describe happen - the divide between capital and labor has only increased exponentially, and as prices have gotten lower people we see less entrepreneurship, less new business starts, fewer products made in America, and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations. > And most of the products we're talking about th…

> and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations.

I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms.

> Raising the prices of those goods makes artisan products more cost competitive.

Look, I don't want an artisan UART board, and I don't think that my programs can ever afford "artisan UARTs." I'll just give up teaching this stuff to students instead.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#412

Post by tsunamifury »

mlyle wrote: post #399
tsunamifury wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally not arguing with you, asked a few questions and made open statements and tried to listen. Consider if you see everyone around you as the asshole who the asshole might be...

I think "this is your missing analysis" is a strong assertion to make to another human-- that sounds like an invitation to argue the merits. Through text, we don't have the benefit of tone. If your intention was to be curious about it, your comments don't convey that. > Consider if you see everyone around you as the asshole who the asshole might be... And now you're just effectively calling names. If you want to talk…

You’re really wound up. Jsut consider that. Most people would not consider “this is missing” fighting words.

Take a moment a think about yourself here. Really. “Shut up and don’t ask questions” is a very toxic behavior.

Really. Think. About. This.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#413

Post by ericmay »

mlyle wrote: post #411
ericmay wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as I look around with our current trade strategy (pre-tariff) I've only seen exactly what you describe happen - the divide between capital and labor has only increased exponentially, and as prices have gotten lower people we see less entrepreneurship, less new business starts, fewer products made in America, and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations. > And most of the products we're talking about th…

> and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations. I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms. > Raising the prices of those goods makes artisan products more cost competitive. Look, I don't want an artisan UART board, and I don't think that my programs can ever afford "artisan UARTs." I'll just give up teaching this stuff to students instead.

I don't know what you mean by artisan UART board - artisans and craftspeople don't, in my view, need to have anything to do with programs or universities or teaching or students - like you sit at home and work on making stuff, maybe you can sell it at a farmer's market or if you make something really good start your own business which could just be a single shop you run. Not to suggest there aren't or can't be training or teaching programs, but that's not a requirement.

Today that's much more difficult because a bar of soap at Wal-Mart is $1 or something and entrepreneurs can't make stuff that cheap when they're making it by hand using real ingredients or honing a specific craft - and it doesn't even end up with shelf space. The suburban, 1-stop-shop big box retailer, drive your SUV down the highway to buy cheap stuff from not America model drives down entrepreneurship and closes off small competitors and artisans.

> I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms.

That's a factor but not the primary one.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#414

Post by mlyle »

tsunamifury wrote: post #412
mlyle wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "this is your missing analysis" is a strong assertion to make to another human-- that sounds like an invitation to argue the merits. Through text, we don't have the benefit of tone. If your intention was to be curious about it, your comments don't convey that. > Consider if you see everyone around you as the asshole who the asshole might be... And now you're just effectively calling names. If you want to talk…

You’re really wound up. Jsut consider that. Most people would not consider “this is missing” fighting words. Take a moment a think about yourself here. Really. “Shut up and don’t ask questions” is a very toxic behavior. Really. Think. About. This.

> You’re really wound up. Jsut consider that.

It's hard to read emotions via text. I'm reading that -you- seem to be, with periods between each word, short phrases, &c.

> “Shut up and don’t ask questions” is a very toxic behavior.

c.f.

> > If you want to talk about economic concepts in a forum like this, you should either ask questions or...

It just seems like you're not reading the things I say.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#415

Post by mlyle »

ericmay wrote: post #413
mlyle wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations. I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms. > Raising the prices of those goods makes artisan products more cost competitive. Look, I don't want an artisan UART board, and I don't think that my programs can ever afford "artisan UARTs." I'll just give up teaching this stuff to students instead.

I don't know what you mean by artisan UART board - artisans and craftspeople don't, in my view, need to have anything to do with programs or universities or teaching or students - like you sit at home and work on making stuff, maybe you can sell it at a farmer's market or if you make something really good start your own business which could just be a single shop you run. Not to suggest there aren't or can't be traini…

I buy stuff -- small circuit boards, electronic components, unusual milling cutters, bearings, etc. The existence of these things as commodities lets me do a lot of deep EE and ME work with high school students.

The US will not build a supply chain for these at any reasonable price. And shouldn't. These should be commodities and US labor should focus on higher value things.

(Not to mention that US suppliers don't really like selling at low quantities and most don't really love selling to education or hobbyists).

Tariffs just directly make my programs less feasible.

Note that de minimis-- which we're talking about here-- has something to do with what's at Amazon because of drop shippers, but basically nothing that is sold somewhere like Walmart.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#416

Post by yibg »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #403
dpkirchner wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if the tariff is set too high domestic goods will become more expensive as well as there'd be no reason for a domestic manufacturer to charge substantially less than the price of the imported goods.

Two domestic manufacturers compete to get more customers by reducing prices, price trends to cost. All tarrifs do is remove foreign competition who have lower costs for a variety of reasons, some which benefit the country imposing the tariff, some not. Neoliberal approach is to always require the cheapest goods, no matter the cost. That’s not the only approach.

Right because removing competition generally reduce prices overall? Even if domestic producer compete with each other, prices still go up overall.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#417

Post by ericmay »

mlyle wrote: post #415
ericmay wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by artisan UART board - artisans and craftspeople don't, in my view, need to have anything to do with programs or universities or teaching or students - like you sit at home and work on making stuff, maybe you can sell it at a farmer's market or if you make something really good start your own business which could just be a single shop you run. Not to suggest there aren't or can't be traini…

I buy stuff -- small circuit boards, electronic components, unusual milling cutters, bearings, etc. The existence of these things as commodities lets me do a lot of deep EE and ME work with high school students. The US will not build a supply chain for these at any reasonable price. And shouldn't. These should be commodities and US labor should focus on higher value things. (Not to mention that US suppliers don't rea…

Well we were also talking about artisan products too and not electronics.

I don't buy the general consensus that the US can't or won't build supply chains for these products - we can and will if the tariffs are high enough, it'll just be highly automated which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In your specific case yea you are probably just looking at higher prices, but I don't think that your general argument is necessarily applicable across the entire economy. That's not to say in your specific case yea maybe the tariffs are just a net negative.

> Note that de minimis-- which we're talking about here-- has something to do with what's at Amazon because of drop shippers, but basically nothing that is sold somewhere like Walmart.

Well yes and no. The availability of drop-shipped products en masse, whether it's through Amazon or Wal-Mart's own drop-ship marketplaces still enable cheap consumerism and generate lots of waste and poor quality products at cheap prices (along with some good products at cheap prices to be fair). But I think the point about Amazon just strengthens my argument (for the sake of argument) which is you get these artificially cheap products shipped in, sometimes with stolen designs, and we can't spin up mom-and-pop shops or cottage industries because everybody just looks at the price of the cheapest bullshit thing they find on Amazon and they don't care about any number of issues that factor in to that price.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#418

Post by arghwhat »

Retric wrote: post #407
arghwhat wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regular people also commit fraud which can make some differences here. Yeah, but it's hard for a regular person to under/overreport a property by, say, 200 million USD, and most people do not have the power to negotiate with or bribe municipalities to get different tax treatment like big companies and the rich people owning them do. > Unpaid property taxes result in forfeiture Avoided taxes are not unpaid taxes - w…

> What regular people own properties in foreign countries Expats often chose their location based on such factors. > people who cheat their way out of having to pay anything. Good luck finding someone who actually pays zero property tax on US land they own. You’re assuming loopholes exist that don’t. > it's hard for a regular person to under/overreport a property by, say, 200 million USD Comparing wealthy taxation is…

> Expats often chose their location based on such factors.

You're not answering the question I wrote. Recreational or investment properties in foreign countries, i.e. not a peron's only property in their home country.

Expats pick a country to live and work in. They don't get to pick different countries for income tax, for property tax, for company tax, etc., like a billionaire being a US citizen with a swiss bank account, luxemburg company, luxury vacation homes in e.g., gated communities in Morocco.

(Also note that this isn't a discussion of just property tax, but billionaires avoiding tax in general.)

> Good luck finding someone who actually pays zero property tax on US land they own

Observe the point above - US citizens owning land in foreign countries.

Also, US citizens paying way less by severely misreporting and paying people to look the other way, like the earlier example.

> Comparing wealthy taxation is only meaningful based on percentages.

All taxes should be fixed, unavoidable percentages yes, that is my original argument. Progressive tax doesn't fix things because it doesn't hit the ultra wealthy like people think, as those evade the flippin' thing anyway. Deal with the corruption and evasion, get some proper (and fixed) rates to apply to their business, and you won't need complex progressive tax systems.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#419

Post by tsunamifury »

mlyle wrote: post #414
tsunamifury wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re really wound up. Jsut consider that. Most people would not consider “this is missing” fighting words. Take a moment a think about yourself here. Really. “Shut up and don’t ask questions” is a very toxic behavior. Really. Think. About. This.

> You’re really wound up. Jsut consider that. It's hard to read emotions via text. I'm reading that -you- seem to be, with periods between each word, short phrases, &c. > “Shut up and don’t ask questions” is a very toxic behavior. c.f. > > If you want to talk about economic concepts in a forum like this, you should either ask questions or... It just seems like you're not reading the things I say.

This is getting comical.

Re: Temporary suspension of acceptance of mail to the United States

#420

Post by donkeybeer »

mlyle wrote: post #415
ericmay wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by artisan UART board - artisans and craftspeople don't, in my view, need to have anything to do with programs or universities or teaching or students - like you sit at home and work on making stuff, maybe you can sell it at a farmer's market or if you make something really good start your own business which could just be a single shop you run. Not to suggest there aren't or can't be traini…

I buy stuff -- small circuit boards, electronic components, unusual milling cutters, bearings, etc. The existence of these things as commodities lets me do a lot of deep EE and ME work with high school students. The US will not build a supply chain for these at any reasonable price. And shouldn't. These should be commodities and US labor should focus on higher value things. (Not to mention that US suppliers don't rea…

These people make insane statements like supposed "pollution" and "slave labor" of China. What pollution man? The item needs to be produced and the factory will have same level of energy use here or anywhere else, so how does that make China a pollutant. I don't understand his obsession with forcefully jacking up prices of inferior shit, how exactly does that help anyone at all? Does he not know what happens with that minuscule extra profit? The worker will have to spend it on, wait for it, another such overpriced expensive junk completely nullifying it. And local industries get coddled and cozy and lose what tiny remaining incentive they had to compete. I am repeatedly asking him to see how high tariff countries like Brazil are. Just ask a Brazilian how they buy an iphone for example. I have never seen this blatant level of economic illiteracy from supposed educated people.

And I don't even know whats his deal with "artisan" bs, technology is technology. It doesn't stop being tech just because it was invented ten thousand years ago. Artisan crap is a luxury for financially comfortable people. Automation is somehow this weird magical "magitech" to this guy I don't know what. Automation isn't a nice to have, its the essence to have something available and affordable to the masses at all. I seriously don't understand this hunger for economic regression.

Making higher quality items cheaper is literally the fundamental basis of capitalism, or even technological progress in the first place. I really don't understand these bizarre economic theories at all.

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