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Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

josefprusa.com

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Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#411

Post by AnthonyMouse »

intended wrote: post #408
AlexandrB wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP is just too strong. The terms are ridiculously long (especially for copyright), there are multiple workarounds for "fair use", such as DMCA, and patents on simple concepts like linked lists are not laughed out of the room. All of this stuff needs to be weakened (and shortened). Part of the reason Chinese companies are able to iterate quickly on technology like 3d printers or drones is that it's possible to simply…

IP is always strong, because information does not behave like other goods. There are no “degrees” either you have protection and enforce it, or you dont. It seems we tend to struggle with most things that obey power laws (wealth, attention, trust) in our economies and societies.

> There are no “degrees” either you have protection and enforce it, or you dont.

It's quite possible to have a narrow IP right. Copyright is a good example. The existence of a copyright on Windows doesn't stop anybody from creating Linux.

The problem isn't the copyright itself, it's the likes of DMCA 1201 which allows the copyright on one thing to be leveraged into control over other things, e.g. by restricting adversarial interoperability. Which then gets leveraged into control over things with a network effect, and that's where all the problems come from. An exclusive right should never apply to a network effect.

Likewise, they issue patents not just on ingenious inventions but on abstract gibberish that amounts to a claim on the problem to be solved rather than any particular solution, which they simply ought not to do. Let there be patents on engines and batteries (concrete things) but not software (an abstraction that exists only as information processing).

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#412

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jandrese wrote: post #294
thayne wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that patents are so (intentionally) difficult to understand that even patented technology is basically trade secrets now anyway. And the useful designs are protected by NDAs.

You can't put a NDA on a Patent. NDAs are basically the modern version of guilds. Imagine a world where absolutely everything about your job is kept under a strict NDA. This is true of startups, but it doesn't scale, especially once you start actually selling product and need to make customers happy to get the sale.

So make NDAs unenforceable.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#413

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Mtinie wrote: post #329
f1shy wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was really so (specifically “lethal”? Do you have sources? I know trade secret was much more important. Also the spirit of patents is to allow development by making all public. But do they?! I’m tired of trying to extract useful information off patents, they are empty of content and full of BS is laywer language. Real important details are kept secret, as long as possible. The current system is de facto not working p…

It could be lethal if a guild member attempted to share secrets or sell methods to a competitive guild. An example: "In 1754 the State Inquisitors of Venice learned that a worker at Daniele Miotti's factory had fled abroad with a copy of his master's books. Fearing that he would divulge secrets—especially in Bohemia, where there were important glass factories—they ordered his death." Source: Zecchin, P., (2025) “Una…

It seems pretty unlikely that guild secrets could be sustained against the modern internet in the absence of any legal protections. One disgruntled employee and your secrets are anonymously contributed to the Wikipedia article on your product.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#414

Post by AnthonyMouse »

BrenBarn wrote: post #404
izacus wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more I look into it, the more I'm convinced that current state of IP law is the rot at the core of western worlds technological stagnation. The rise of monopolistic megacorps, lack of independent innovation and enshittifcation can pretty much be traced back to the wide free market violating reach of current IP law. This article just highlights it and shows how China weaponized this weakness of the west and is suc…

It's a factor, but I also wonder whether the key morpheme there isn't the "mega" in "megacorps". If, say, entity A attempting to enforce IP against entity B had to pay fees proportional to the size ratio (e.g., Megacorp enforcing against Little Joe's Software requires a $1 billion fee from Megacorp), things would be different. The problem there is identifying the relevant entity, and I think that is the key. And it's…

Just ignore the size of the plaintiff and make everything depend on the size of the defendant. Is the defendant a huge megacorp? Make every inference against them. Is it a tiny small business? Give them every benefit of the doubt.

Then if megacorp tries to set up a tiny shell company to do their dirty work, you just ignore the shell company and sue the megacorp. Whereas if something is actually a small business, there is no megacorp hiding anywhere behind it.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#415

Post by roody15 »

Reminds me of cellular phones / I hope that one corporation doesn’t lock down the 3d printing industry in a similar way to cell phones.

We really have two types of smartphones Android based and iOS Apple. The patents surrounding wireless radio transmission and cellular connectivity esssentially make it impossible for any competition outside of mega corporations.

The cost is so high that likely only Microsoft could attempt (again) such a move or maybe Amazon or Space X.

“ Extensive Patent Portfolio: Motorola has a large number of patents related to cellular technology, with over 1,900 patent families considered essential to 3G, 4G, and 5G standards, according to Lenovo. Strategic Acquisition: Google's acquisition of Motorola Mobility in 2011 was largely driven by the desire to acquire Motorola's patent portfolio to defend Android. Licensing Agreements: Motorola has entered into cross-licensing agreements with other companies, such as Sharp, to share their respective wireless communication technologies. Standard-Essential Patents (SEPs): Motorola holds SEPs related to mobile phone signal standards, obligating them to license these patents to competitors on fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory terms. Patent Disputes: Motorola has been involved in patent infringement lawsuits, including cases against companies like Hytera and Apple, regarding their cellular technology patents. ”

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#416

Post by pavlus »

ungreased0675 wrote: post #175
hyperbovine wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want so much to like Prusa ... but the Bambu printer at my local makerspace costs half as much and is better in every way than the MK3S+ sitting in my basement. I'm fully aware that this is the result of shrewdness on the part of the Chinese, plus incompetence in the West, and it's so frustrating.

If you ever need to fix a Bambu printer, your opinion may change.

I thought I could fix AMS mainboard by re-soldering connectors, so reached out to support and they helped me find which connectors I needed to buy. Unfortunately, there was more damage, that could be fixed by re-soldering them, so I simply replaced the mainboard and it was easy.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#417

Post by oblio »

lunar-whitey wrote: post #396
oblio wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but that hasn't stopped big companies from not open sourcing the crown jewels, just for good measure. Apple post 2011 has never open sourced their UI toolkits, Google has never open sourced their search engine, etc.

The code for both of these is largely a liability. You cannot market a competitive offering in the OS or search spaces with code alone.

It's so much of a liability that Google and Apple don't dare release it, even 27+ years and 14+ years after the original release.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#418

Post by sarchertech »

mrheosuper wrote: post #398
sarchertech wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but you’re comparing the cost to a current gen Prusa and the performance to a last gen Prusa. You need to pick one generation to compare both.

he was comparing what he had. If you sent him the latest prusa printer, i bet he will compare it for you.

> want so much to like Prusa ... but the Bambu printer at my local makerspace costs half as much and is better in every way than the MK3S+ sitting in my basement. I'm fully aware that this is the result of shrewdness on the part of the Chinese, plus incompetence in the West, and it's so frustrating.

Then maybe don’t phrase it like this. And also acknowledge that it’s a nonsense comparison. People that don’t know Prusa model numbers will just assume the OP is talking about comparable products.

“I really want to like Macs, but the new Lenovo I got for work is better and costs half as much as the 5 year old Mac I have in my basement. Why is the west so incompetent?”

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#419

Post by coldtea »

Someone wrote: post #291
coldtea wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's like say a band getting an advance to record their album should be illegal. It should. > Without access to people with money now a lot of it wouldn't get made. So be it. > The other results is art made by those who don't need it, purely made by amateurs, grant funded art, or socially funded art. Sounds amazing. We don't need to go with the default vanilla options that are passed as inevitable...

>> That's like say a band getting an advance to record their album should be illegal. > It should. Mortgages and car loans can be seen as advances on future income. Insurance is a way to split a risk from a property. For example, if I own a house there’s a risk it burns down. With fire insurance, you keep the house, but the insurer takes on the risk, in exchange for a fee. Why shouldn’t a band be permitted to do some…

>Mortgages and car loans can be seen as advances on future income

I'm against those as well. Buy stuff after you can afford it.

>Insurance is a way to split a risk from a property. For example, if I own a house there’s a risk it burns down. With fire insurance, you keep the house, but the insurer takes on the risk, in exchange for a fee.

I'm against insurance companies too. Have a public insurance fund instead.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#420

Post by me-vs-cat »

f1shy wrote: post #322
thayne wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that patents are so (intentionally) difficult to understand that even patented technology is basically trade secrets now anyway. And the useful designs are protected by NDAs.

Where I work it takes months of lawyers, just to understand of one idea we have is an infringement or not. Is a mined field, on purpose.

> it takes months of lawyers, just to understand if one idea we have is an infringement or not.

Even after that work, you don't know if your idea is infringing. All you have is a prediction on whether it will be found infringing if you are ever sued.

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