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Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

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Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is “normal development”? And doesn’t that describe the process, not the outcome? If the outcome is happiness, who knows who has it better?!

Normal development starts with having the normal number of chromosomes. I would think this is elementary biology.

I think of it as more of a probability question. There is a much greater chance of a person having two copies of chromosome 21 instead of three. "Normal" often carries some form of judgement but I guess technically you are correct to use the word.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#412
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a simple test. Ask any straight person if they’d want to turn gay, the vast majority would say no. My guess is they’d say no if you asked the same question about their children. But I’m gay, and while there are pros and cons to it, I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. And I don’t think just because someone else doesn’t want to be me is a reasonable bar for eradication. To be clear, I’m not sayin…

Would you want your children to be gay? As a straight person, given the choice I would want my children to be straight, so they could have biological children with their partner and a dating pool of ~48% of the population rather than ~2%. Those are pretty clear objective advantages, even putting aside the issue of societal acceptance. It's completely understandable to have an attachment to one's own identity, but at…

I wouldn’t want to impose that on my children either way. I’d prefer to let nature decide.

There’s no way in hell I’d want to select for straightness in my children. That is frankly insulting to me to even suggest.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#413
post #290
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a simple test. Ask any straight person if they’d want to turn gay, the vast majority would say no. My guess is they’d say no if you asked the same question about their children. But I’m gay, and while there are pros and cons to it, I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. And I don’t think just because someone else doesn’t want to be me is a reasonable bar for eradication. To be clear, I’m not sayin…

>But I’m gay, and while there are pros and cons to it, I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world. Having Dawn syndrome is severe impairment. Being gay isn't an impairment. At least nowadays in US. I'm not sure you would feel the same if you were gay in Chechnja ... where supposedly gays just don't exist, and when something like gay happens the family deals with him themselves (the rule there - either the family d…

My comment makes it clear I’m not comparing the two, I’m just saying it’s not a good argument as it does not hold for other cases.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#414
post #262
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that is a legitimate argument to make in a cruel, uncaring (most of the time) world. No, it isn’t. “I wish you didn’t exist because your existence inconveniences me,” is a step away from “I should be able to kill you because you inconvenience me.” You will likely think that I am being hyperbolic (“We’re just talking about if it was a good idea for these people to exist, not saying we should be able to kill the…

Yes, I do think you’re being hyperbolic. We’re waging a life that doesn’t exist yet against two parents and possible a healthy child that could be. Accommodating for a human that exists, if suffering, is clearly a moral obligation. Doing so when it’s not a human but a husk still is not, and deciding in favour of the very human parents—who also have a right to happiness—is definitely ethically valid. In a related disc…

> In a related discussion, someone argued that keeping up industrial farming is just, because if we stopped doing so all the cattle that wouldn’t been born would be worse off for never being alive, even if their existence was suffering, because suffering is better than not being at all. I firmly believe this is just wrong. Before a being gains consciousness, it’s not a being and doesn’t experience, hence by avoiding their conception we also avoid unnecessary suffering.

You bring up an interesting argument, but I think there is some nuance here. I am not arguing that we have an obligation to propagate human life for the sake of propagating human life; I just think there is a risk of devaluing existing human life by claiming it ought not to have existed in the first place.

There are limitations here. e.g. if one is offended at the claim that Down Syndrome is something to be cured, it may be that one is placing too much emphasis on identifying the expression of an individual’s genes with the individual himself (so e.g. eliminating the extra chromosome is not analogous to eliminating the person himself). We wouldn’t do this with a broken bone, but the solution to a broken bone is setting the bone, whereas the “solution” to Down Syndrome has historically been abortion.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#415
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some bioethics experts are concerned I do have to wonder what goes on in the minds of these people. My sister-in-law has a child with Down's syndrome and the situation basically ruined her life. She can no longer work, so they now struggle on a single income, if her husband were to leave her she would be completely screwed. To what end is that in the continuance of ethics?

Many ethicists value the continuation of someone's--anyone's--(literal) life over the continuation of anyone else's life style. I'm not arguing whether you should or shouldn't agree with them, nor saying anything about in which cases. It's just one of the primary things going on in the minds of those people, and you said you wondered.

I've heard this expressed as existence versus life. Nobody owes it to to give up their life for the life of another, let alone if all that can be hoped for is the mere existence of another.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#416
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that is a legitimate argument to make in a cruel, uncaring (most of the time) world. No, it isn’t. “I wish you didn’t exist because your existence inconveniences me,” is a step away from “I should be able to kill you because you inconvenience me.” You will likely think that I am being hyperbolic (“We’re just talking about if it was a good idea for these people to exist, not saying we should be able to kill the…

I do feel the same way of my existence being discussed this way. Would anything be different had I not existed? No, besides my brief life experience and interactions I’ve had with other humans not occurring. I wouldn’t have even known I never existed. Is that good or bad? Right or wrong? No, it just is.

> Would anything be different had I not existed? No, besides my brief life experience and interactions I’ve had with other humans not occurring.

“Besides” is doing a lot of work here.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#417
post #301

One person’s “cognitive impairment” is another’s empathy enhancement.

That's a very zero-sum way of looking at this.

It does raise the question about what we lose when the last person with Downs has died out.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#418
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to imagine a treatment cost so high that it wouldn't be worth the USG paying for it. Down syndrome kids and adults have some quantifiable economic cost; normal adults are worth some other quantifiable economic benefit; the difference is going to be significantly more than the cost of treatment.

> It's hard to imagine a treatment cost so high that it wouldn't be worth the USG paying for it. Given that this is also true of universal health insurance and the US government also doesn't pay for that...

They (we) do, just for groups that incur the highest medical expenses on average. Why we can't just open up Medicare to all is beyond me, adding on the portions of the population who are on average the healthiest (and who are already paying for the people on it) would not push up the cost significantly.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#419
post #321
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but we can't blame people for what they are/are not attracted to on either side of the fence, just their rational responses to "the other". And I'm not sure lesbians are "far more accepted", perhaps as long as they fit a traditional heterosexual idea of beauty and femininity and associated behaviour.

> but we can't blame people for what they are/are not attracted to That's an odd thing to bring up randomly.

I think it's because you said "cunts" lol

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#420
post #403
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is this imaginary "historical communist" you mentioned? You're claiming Mao killing millions with idiotic policies (not to mention all the scapegoats he killed intentionally) was okay because he was "trying"? Or are you talking about Stalin, Lenin, or Castro? Who is telling you that you "have to live under constant surveillance" and so on? You'd rather have someone run the country into the ground while lying to y…

"Who is telling you that you "have to live under constant surveillance" and so on?" I was born in the US, didn't have a choice!

You think you live under constant surveillance in the US? While there might be more surveillance than you like, claiming there is constant surveillance everywhere in the nation (or anywhere really) is ridiculous.
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