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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#411

Post by al_borland »

wavemode wrote: post #236
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

There is always a customer experience reason. Every anticompetitive company that has ever existed has benefited from the customer experience of everything being in one place and coming from one company. Unfortunately, "my product benefits from being anticompetitive" is not a valid justification for anticompetitive practices.

I struggle to paint a company with a minority marketshare, after having first mover advantage, as anticompetitive.

That said, their argument that the payment policies disproportionately impact apps trying to create sustainable business models that don’t monetize user data is a compelling one that I very much sympathize with.

I’m a Proton subscriber, but I went through their website, just because I tend to do that for any service that isn’t exclusive to Apple or the App Store. The same is true for Kagi, another privacy focused service I subscribe to. I never thought about it, but maybe that’s my way of avoiding lock-in. If I ever leave iOS at some point, I don’t want to have to cancel and resubscribe to something that could cause a service interruption. I also want to make sure that the subscription is everywhere, not just on my Apple devices, and it’s tied to the email I choose.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#412

Post by [deleted] »

_benton wrote: post #62
TulliusCicero wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to keep your own device locked down yourself and to only use Apple's own app store if you want.

If they have to make changes in software to allow an "unlocked" device that makes it inherently less secure.

[deleted]

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#413

Post by whstl »

_benton wrote: post #409
whstl wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What right does a company have to piggyback off of another company? Apple has no right to piggybacking off of another company's business. Therefore the 30% must go.

They aren't piggybacking, they provide the infrastructure, marketplace, and platform.

Apple is forcing companies and users to use this infrastructure, so this is indeed Apple piggybacking and putting its hands where it shouldn't.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#414

Post by whstl »

_benton wrote: post #408
saubeidl wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not piggybacking off another company if they use alternative distribution networks. Should the construction company that built the grocery store be able to take a cut off grocery profits and have a say in what the store is selling?

Depends on the contract between the grocery store and the construction company.

Also depends on legislation. If the government says "fuck you" to the construction company, it has to comply.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#415

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

wickedsight wrote: post #392
dcow wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't even know you could change the default mail app on iOS and I’ve used it for the better part of a decade now, as a Proton user too. I’ve endured the frustration because I thought it was fixed. Either being allowed to change it is relatively new, region locked, or yeah it’s a labyrinth.

> Either being allowed to change it is relatively new, region locked, or yeah it’s a labyrinth. It's about 5 years old by now. Not having looked for something in a couple of years and being bummed out by that doesn't make Apple the bad guy.

Why would anyone look for something they haven't been told about?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#416

Post by al_borland »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #289
boredatoms wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some vital apps will stop using apple’s store entirely if they could, it’ll proliferate

If we unpack this argument we can precisely pinpoint the issue. In order for this argument to be true, Apple would need to have market power. Having market power is the thing that makes tying etc. an antitrust violation. Because it can be used for more than allowing people to cancel subscriptions. Like charging a 30% margin in a market where it's normally 3%, or excluding apps that compete with Apple software or serv…

Steam and Android charge a similar 30% fee in their stores.

When I hear about a 3% fee, I think of the interchange fees for a credit card. That doesn’t have the same overhead as hosting the software, handling the updates, managing the front end, reviews, etc. I can only assume that 2-3% of the 30% are going to Visa, as I’m sure Apple is paying interchange fees to process the payments.

30% probably still creates a very healthy margin, which could be trimmed (and has been for companies making less than $1m). But it is right in line with the rest of the industry, at least for the other big players.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#417

Post by mda »

BowBun wrote: post #47
Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

> I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory Don't you think this is _maybe_ an overstatement? I was annoyed about this for years but reading your take is borderline satirical.

I think gp's statement is a pretty accurate, Apple's behavior was intentional, they know it ends up creating artificial social pressure and bullying. Most appalling and disgusting.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#418

Post by Nevermark »

Reply to a couple hundred comments: You don’t have to be a monopoly to be deemed to be acting in an anti-competitive manner.

Just dominant by some significant measure, in some significant dimension, enough for many people to complain. And for a judge to review the practices and find the company is leveraging that dominance to maintain dominance or hold dominance over adjacent markets in a way that is blocking competition.

Apple is using their control of their phone hardware and OS to preclude any alternate source of apps or app stores, in order to charge a large vig on every app and in app purchase. And block competitive, tech like alternate web browser engines, and any app they don’t like.

They are big enough to warp the whole market for mobile apps and browsers. A large percentage of apps become much less viable if they don’t supportiOS. So “choose another phone” isn’t a viable solution to the harm.

Nothing stops Apple from having an App Store. Using it to enforce security rules. Nothing stops users from using it exclusively (EDIT: Don’t download from other sources, or if you do, click “no” when you get asked if you want to install apps from other sources. This is trivial for Apple to do.)

The problem is the app market is massive, highly dependent on having iOS versions to compete in the overall mobile device space, and Apple is both blocking alternative app sources and taxing all those apps, and completely prohibiting some apps, while prohibiting any other options.

Enforcing rules against anti-competitive behavior isn’t a zero cost practice. it is reasonable for some people to prefer the status quo.

But it’s better than allowing anti-competitive behavior, which would encourage more such behavior because not having competition is incredibly profitable. And the harms of letting anti-competitive behavior go unchecked tend to be significant but only obvious in hindsight, or never. That’s part of the problem. Without healthy competition lots of significant but non-obvious progress gets snuffed out before it has a chance.

Either you nip it in the bud, or end up dealing with much worse abuses.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#419

Post by fauigerzigerk »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #370
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh devs would absolutely avoid distributing through the App Store if they want to run any code that would fail App Store Review, such as the abuse of private low-level APIs to gather more user data than the app needs, which all businesses have a profit incentive to do. There are many other possible scenarios: devs forcing users to authenticate with unsecure methods, gather and unsecurely store credit card information…

Distribution via alternative stores does not mean there’s no review and moderation. Junk stores may have their fans, but competitive alternatives to App Store will inevitably introduce some controls to maintain reputation and remain compliant. Their advantage will be price, not presence of junk apps. That’s how free market with consumer protection laws works: regulation defines parameters of new equilibrium and event…

Price wouldn't be the only point of differentiation though. Say Google were to bring the Play Store to iOS. Apple's App Store allows users to opt out of tracking. The Play Store does not. Wouldn't all apps that use an advertising based business model automatically gravitate towards the Play Store?

If the goal is to make Apple open up their platform in a way that doesn't take away choices from users, we need a set of rules to guarantee that. Otherwise I agree with rTX5CMRXIfFG. Facebook and Google would find ways to gradually make the App Store more and more unattractive until that choice no longer exists. There would be billions of dollars worth of incentives.

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