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Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

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Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#411

Post by rchaud »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #358
nine_k wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yarvin's analysis of a situation is often interesting and poignant, and occasionally quite fun to read, due to his erudition and irony. His positive program though is underwhelming at best, and hostile at worst, literally against several key points of the US oath of allegiance, for instance. His idea of a benevolent head of a "sovcorp" ("sovereign corporation") is not even some virtuous king Elessar; someone like pre…

I disagree that Putin has a long horizon of planning. He is very much medium term, waiting for opportunities to occur. He also has enough resources that if a bet does not work out, he can still double down a few times till he wins. That is not a bad strategy unless someone figures it out and plans to bankrupt you.

I think he has an extremely long horizon. What we are seeing in the US today, the accelerated pace of institutional destruction (science and technology funding crushed, regulatory bodies hollowed out, constant division qnd threats of civil war) is precisely what occurred in Russia after the collapse of the USSR. These go a lot further than just carrying out the fantasies of American conservatives. They are about destroying the very pillars of American power, something Putin has wanted ever he saw the damage wrought by the overnight transition of Russia into a democracy and market economy, which happened at the behest of western economists and business interests. And just like in Russia, these events always result in one outcome: dictatorship.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#412

Post by NickC25 »

rchaud wrote: post #410
NickC25 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A guy who says that races shouldn't mix, that diversity is bad, etc... happens to be part of a group that historically has been marginalized to some degree nearly every time it tries to integrate itself into a larger society. Sometimes, that same group's not just been marginalized by political word, but by real physical violence. A lot of the "real Americans" in flyover country who rail about "coastal elites" do not…

A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not. Most American Jews do not have accents or wear religious garb that would make them stand out, as may have been the case in the world portrayed in Portnoy's Dilemma based in 1920s New York City. Post-WWII, many of those that immigrated to the United States are of European heritage (Polish, Italian, Ukrainian…

>A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not

A good indicator can usually be their last name, especially if they are of German origin.

> wear religious garb that would make them stand out

Ever been to Brooklyn? How about Miami Beach? I'm from close to one of those places, and live in the other - and see Jewish people choosing to dress in religious garb every day. The more religious one gets (goes for Islam too), the more obvious it is to a passerby.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#413

Post by skrtskrt »

colechristensen wrote: post #257
skrtskrt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and by and large things that "they won't teach you in college" are because they have been already looked into and rejected by any serious academic. These institutions are not above criticism (particularly in regards to economic theory IMO) but universities not teaching like, race science and holocaust denialism is not because they are scared of some "alternate truth" out there.

>These institutions are not above criticism And there's a troubling problem that the criticism isn't being addressed. One of the reasons we're in the political extremist situation is that the only ones seemingly capable of getting anything done are the fascists with no respect for rule of law. People get so sick for so long of nothing getting better that large numbers of them are turning to extremists who are actuall…

I tend to agree with this basic argument that feckless do-nothing liberalism leads to fascism. If the existing power structure is actively, visibly, constantly working to make people's lives better than fascist messaging is far less effective.

I do think that our current brand of fascism has completely skipped the "make some things better to prove the superiority of our ideology" stage (e.g. "Mussolini made the trains run on time" type stuff.) To say they are actually addressing problems is an absurdity. They can't even cut overall spending like they claim they would. They simply have to use their tens of thousands of media outlets and social media bots to convince people to not believe their eyes while things visibly and rapidly deteriorate.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#414

Post by underlipton »

biophysboy wrote: post #160
underlipton wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangential: I'm reminded of the sadly stillborn Final Fantasy Versus XIII, and its apparent ambition to present a "modern" monarchy, styled visually with elements of both contemporary business and the mafia. You're right, there's nothing inherently noble or benevolent in autocracy; the king brought forward to the present isn't a statesman or innovator, he's a robber baron or a crime boss. I kind of lament that that s…

That is a shame - sounds like a fun idea for a JRPG. Bioshock sort of touches on technocracy, but its more post-apocalyptic. A game that spans the rise and fall of a "board of great geniuses" would be great.

Minor spoilers, but: DEATHLOOP. Which, as luck would have it, is currently free on Epic Games Store.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#415

Post by daotoad »

kragen wrote: post #247
ceejayoz wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've left out the fairly obvious possibility #3, which is "Yarvin fears reputational damage to Vance that might prevent Vance from helping him advance his ideology". This, after all, was Thiel's concern in the quoted exchange. #2 gets a lot more plausible when you remember these folks often care more about the backing (especially $$$) of someone like Thiel than the regular public, too.

Hmm, in that case you'd think he'd've avoided giving an interview to the New York Times?

Pride and the opportunity to get your ego stroked makes people do dumb stuff all the time.

On the other hand, Yarvin may also be making the decision that any publicity will drive readers to him and net him more followers overall and that the risk of damage to Vance is less than the perceived benefit of new followers.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#416

Post by cjbgkagh »

thedailymail wrote: post #407
cjbgkagh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been hearing it’s eminent because China is not a democracy, I hear the western perspective. I see revolutions as an alternate elite agitating for change. In my model an effective suppression of an alternative elite is sufficient to prevent revolution. In my model it comes down to which secret police are more effective, the MSS or the CIA. Which is especially relevant here because how much of the ‘Thielverse’ is…

I don't want to be pedantic or prescriptive, but it's "imminent" not "eminent." (The wrong word got introduced upstream in this thread and was taken up by multiple commenters.)

Thanks, I'm a bit dyslexic so it is not uncommon for me to make such mistakes

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#417

Post by the_af »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #404
queenkjuul wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop conflating the Israeli government with Jewish people in general

I don't think that I've done that. The original assertion was that it would be somehow "ironic" for a jewish person to have ethnocentric/supremacist/nationalist views. I pointed out that it definitely existed in that group.

> Jewish people have no moral high ground here.

You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I'm of Jewish heritage and I strongly disagree with Israel's foreign policy and treatment of Palestinians.

Going back to your original question, it's ironic that a Jewish person is "committed to race science" (to quote the original comment) because "race science" was used by the nazis to justify the Holocaust; one would think Jewish people would be particularly wary of anyone using "race science" as an argument for anything.

You seem to imply it's not ironic because of Israeli treatment of Gaza and Palestinians in general, but consider this: that's also ironic, for the same reason.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#418

Post by LAC-Tech »

the_af wrote: post #417
LAC-Tech wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that I've done that. The original assertion was that it would be somehow "ironic" for a jewish person to have ethnocentric/supremacist/nationalist views. I pointed out that it definitely existed in that group.

> Jewish people have no moral high ground here. You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I'm of Jewish heritage and I strongly disagree with Israel's foreign policy and treatment of Palestinians. Going back to your original question, it's ironic that a Jewish person is "committed to race science" (to quote the original comment) because "race science" was used by the nazis to justi…

> You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same.

I never said it was the same. I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews. And so I argue that it's not at all "ironic" for a person of jewish descent to (allegedly) think bigoted things. They have no moral high ground, and neither does any other race (however one chooses to define that).

As to the rest, I suppose we have different definitions of ironic. I don't find it ironic for members of one group to target members of another group with violence, despite once having been the targets of violence themselves. History will tell you this is the norm.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#419

Post by Anthony-G »

tempestn wrote: post #403
Anthony-G wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve really enjoyed the TV series (so far). Would you recommend reading the books – either before or after watching future seasons? While watching the first two seasons, I still haven’t understood why the creators of the silos wouldn’t just have told people the truth to avoid the dysfunctionality that results from the cognitive dissonance that the leadership has to maintain. Telling the truth would also preclude the…

It's been a long time since I read the books, but I recall thinking the same as you. And I'm not sure it does entirely make sense, but the world today has made me realize that both people in charge and the population at large can do incredibly damaging things, even directly against their own interests, that appear to make no sense at all. So even if something truly does make no sense, that doesn't make it unrealistic…

Thanks for the response. I think you’re right that, “if something truly does make no sense, that doesn't make it unrealistic.” I’ve watched documentaries or dramatisations of events that happened in real life (my wife is a also true-crime aficionado) and thought that if this plot or character was a work of fiction, I wouldn’t buy it. My memory isn’t that good either so I can’t think of any recent examples from TV/film.

However, the first time I heard about the CIA’s MKUltra project, I assumed that it was a 70s’ conspiracy theory but was shocked to then discover that it’s true. Dosing non-consenting victims with hallucinogenic drugs outside of a controlled clinical test made as much sense as the US military’s psychic spies and “men who stare at goats” program. I was similarly shocked to learn about the Tuskegee Syphilis Study (though less surprised, given US history), particularly that it continued right up until 1972 – this really made no sense as antibiotics had already been proven to be an effective treatment back in the 40s. More recently, when I first heard of the systemic sexual abuse and rape of thousands of mostly white English under-age girls by gangs of mostly Pakistani men in places like Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Peterborough, it sounded like a far-right racist fantasy. I still find it hard to wrap my head around that one; I still see – and want to see – people as being essentially good/moral and this conflicts with that narrative.

Sorry for going off on such a disturbing tangent. I want to start reading more books and will add the Silo series to my list.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#420

Post by the_af »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #418
the_af wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jewish people have no moral high ground here. You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I'm of Jewish heritage and I strongly disagree with Israel's foreign policy and treatment of Palestinians. Going back to your original question, it's ironic that a Jewish person is "committed to race science" (to quote the original comment) because "race science" was used by the nazis to justi…

> You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I never said it was the same. I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews. And so I argue that it's not at all "ironic" for a person of jewish descent to (allegedly) think bigoted things. They have no moral high ground, and neither does any other race (however one chooses to define that). As to the rest, I suppose we have different…

> I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews

An instance of bigotry supported by an admittedly large portion of Israel's population. Not by "the Jews".

> History will tell you this is the norm.

Irony is the norm in history, so it seems we actually agree.

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