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I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#411

Post by 0xffany »

verisimi wrote: post #361
yojo wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not denying food to the parents, you are denying food to the children. They did not choose to be born, and they certainly didn’t choose the fiscal responsibility of their parents. Maybe there is room in there to shame the parents or give them a slap on the wrist, but the kids are blameless and denying them food makes you probably a monster.

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In the wake of a demographic collapse, you're arguing against helping feed children - future tax contributors, caretakers, social workers, healthcare personnel...? Who will pay taxes for you when you won't be of working age anymore? Who will be your caretakers?

Contributing to the next generation's upbringing is the least we can do, even if some won't have kids of their own they would still (directly) indirectly benefit from this.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#412

Post by bgnn »

mettamage wrote: post #397
askonomm wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wild to me. In Estonia school lunches are free for everyone, paid by the taxpayer. Doesn't matter if you are poor or wealthy, everybody gets the same food.

Interesting. In the Netherlands we packed our lunches or we cycled home to eat lunch with our parents and then cycled back to school. Lunch was one of the most favorite times of my day. A break from school during school hours. What a treat!

Yeah, dry bread and cheese..

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#413

Post by madeofpalk »

verisimi wrote: post #344
kerkeslager wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.

I'll play devil's advocate, and you tell me the immorality of the position. Say you have no children. Is it an acceptable position to hold that 'those people who have children should also be the ones to look after them'? Shouldn't you have considered these sorts of expenses and being able to meet them, rather than expecting to receive handouts?

Yes. That's an acceptable position to hold. It's unacceptable and inhumane to think that children should starve.

The devil doesn't need an advocate here.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#414

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

camgunz wrote: post #401
mlyle wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the correct answer is. The tricky thing is, if you let anyone just choose not to pay, there will be plenty of people who are capable of paying who don't bother. In your case, it sounds like your dad was maybe capable of paying but wanted to freeload. So as long as you're going to charge for lunches, you need to have some kind of enforcement mechanism. Embarrassing the kid ideally would not be part o…

There are no moral hazards when it comes to social welfare programs. People really think there are, but every time we look we find practically no freeloaders. This idea that we have to threaten people with literal starvation to get them to be productive members of society is ironically deeply impoverished. And if we really think that's true, why do we let people accrue wealth at all? Why do we then think that the mos…

>People really think there are, but every time we look we find practically no freeloaders.

I don't believe that is true. You didn't provide any support for your claim at all either. Let's just consider a single example:

>In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job, and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a disability check from the government.

>...

>I talked to lots of people in Hale County who were on disability. Sometimes, the disability seemed unambiguous.

>...

>As far as the federal government is concerned, you're disabled if you have a medical condition that makes it impossible to work. In practice, it's a judgment call made in doctors' offices and courtrooms around the country. The health problems where there is most latitude for judgment -- back pain, mental illness -- are among the fastest growing causes of disability.

This is from NPR of all places: https://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

Why are these health problems growing so fast? The obvious explanation is that the stigma against faking disability is evaporating in places like Hale County. That's how they got to the point where 1 in 4 working-age adults is on disability there.

Another example: mtnGoat stated that their father was perfectly capable of paying for lunch but did not do so. If there was a need-based lunch program, mtnGoat would presumably be a "freeloader".

Arguably, the real problem in mtnGoat's case is they had an abusive parent. The relevant state tool would be child-protective services, not a cafeteria lunch lady.

I'm in favor of free school lunches for kids. But I'm very annoyed with the strawmanning in this thread. For example, it seems like a strawman to say that people who are against free school lunches "want kids to go hungry". Maybe they just believe that parents should be responsible rather than the state.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#415

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

kashunstva wrote: post #398

Meanwhile, the proposed U.S. defence budget is ~ $1 trillion and the Department of Education is slated to not exist. This tells you much of what one needs to know about that country, and why having hungry children is perfectly ok. There should be a dialectic around individualism and communitarianism but with some number of citizens endorsing a polar position, including the solipsist-in-chief, it’s hard to see a way f…

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#416

Post by verisimi »

hofrogs wrote: post #378
verisimi wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this: we give all people all meals, clothes, housing, heating (all essentials) and spending money so that they can explore their interests, travel, etc?

This is what humanity must aim for.

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#417

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

heresjohnny wrote: post #367

As someone from Europe, I had heard before about bankrupting ambulance rides, slavery in prisons, and food deserts. I did not expect to add “lunch money humiliation ritual” to that list. I’ll think of this next time I complain about my 50% income tax.

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#418

Post by thrance »

snkzxbs wrote: post #403
mtnGoat wrote: post #343

As someone who experienced this first hand growing up. I consider how someone feels about free school lunch, a basic test of their humanity. If you think kids should go hungry or be embarrassed at school because of their parents finances… we can’t be friends, nor acquaintances. IMHO, you are subhuman at that point and not worth my time. My dad believed that because he paid taxes he shouldn’t have to pay the school to…

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When the other side is advocating for children to starve, then yeah, fuck them. There is no point in being charitable to people incapable of the most basic decency.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#419

Post by pertymcpert »

snkzxbs wrote: post #403
mtnGoat wrote: post #343

As someone who experienced this first hand growing up. I consider how someone feels about free school lunch, a basic test of their humanity. If you think kids should go hungry or be embarrassed at school because of their parents finances… we can’t be friends, nor acquaintances. IMHO, you are subhuman at that point and not worth my time. My dad believed that because he paid taxes he shouldn’t have to pay the school to…

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Chiming in here: I've thought this for a long time, well before contemporary politics. Fuck these people.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#420

Post by walthamstow »

overfeed wrote: post #381
socalgal2 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can want kids to be fed and fully believe that the government giving out free meal to all kids will eventually lead to kids not being feed. I can think of lots of arguments Budgets might be cut directly, so can not feed some percent, budgets might be cut indirectly (less tax revenue). Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient. The "give a man a fish he eat…

> Giving out free food might make people feel entitled and less likely to learn to be self sufficient To be clear, the subject is still children, right? Refusing to feed children to "teach" them self-sufficiency is, IMO, right up there with a non-ironic "the children yearn for the mines". What could a self-sufficient 6th-grader even do for money? Steal baby food and small electronics from Target for fencing?

Well, I learnt a new Americanism today. Fence, verb, meaning to shift stolen goods.

Upon first read I thought they would be sword fighting with stolen bluetooth speakers.

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